HOTD: The Westeros Kickback Season 2 Episode 1

[00:00:00] What's up fam? Welcome to our first episode of Hot D, the Westeros Kickback. I'm your host Chappelle and I'm so excited to dive into season 2 episode 1 of House of the Dragon aka a son for a son. And with me, the keeper of receipts, it's Mari Forth.

[00:00:37] Mari, Master Mari, what's happening? Uh yeah, I mean season 2 episode 1 is over. We're here to talk about it. We're here to talk about it right after it. So lots of process. I think I'm going to be processing it as we talk about it today.

[00:00:53] So this should be fun, like raw thoughts and stuff like that. Yeah, let's talk it through. So if you're new here, this is House of the Dragons, the Westeros Kickback, also known as Hot D, the Westeros Kickback here on Recap Kickback.

[00:01:07] This is a podcast where Mari and I are going to break down every episode right after the episode ends and try to have that up for you as soon as possible so that you can join in our Recap Kickback conversations about this amazing show, House of the Dragon.

[00:01:19] Again I'm Chappelle and I am a casual viewer of the Dragons, but I've been trying to get in. I've been watching, paying attention, taking my notes, but I have with me a certified expert of all the things that are them dragons y'all and it's Mari.

[00:01:33] And Mari is going to keep us on track and make sure we touch on everything in the episode. But then also we're going to leave a little space at the end for Maester Mari's book corner while we talk about a little bit spoilery stuff from the book.

[00:01:46] So if you're into that kind of thing, stay tuned. We'll be doing that at the end. But again, this is a full spoiler recap of season two, episode one, A Son for a Son. And a lot happened in this episode. Mari. All right. Big picture.

[00:02:00] A baby is dead. What happened? Yeah. Big picture. Any of the book readers or anybody who's familiar with the source material know that this, knew that this episode was coming. People have been clamoring for this, the blood and cheese episode.

[00:02:18] And in my Maester's corner, I am going to be talking about the difference between what we saw on screen and what we saw in the book because it was actually very different. So like big picture, it is not what I thought it was going to be.

[00:02:34] And a lot of us have been waiting for this scene in particular. So it's going to be really interesting over the next few days to see the reception of this scene online and stuff.

[00:02:47] And from book readers, for me right now on first viewing, I'm kind of like, I don't know. And I'll get into it in the Maester's corner. So but overall, I think the episode was really good. I think they definitely had to stretch out some things. They definitely changed.

[00:03:07] Like there were things that I was like, oh, okay. Like not even like spoiler, but like, oh, we're going there. So yeah, I think it lived up to its hype. I think no matter what, I'm so glad Dragons is back. So that's all that matters.

[00:03:25] Yeah, I'm definitely happy that Dragons is back y'all. We get the blood and cheese of it all. I wouldn't know what you were talking about if I hadn't just watched the episode seconds ago.

[00:03:37] But the blood and cheese are this duo that is sent on like a mission to go and kill Aemond to avenge, I guess, the death of Lucerys. And when they cannot find Aemond, they are given instruction.

[00:03:54] We don't actually hear what the instruction is from Daemon, but based on the fact that they will go in and seemingly decapitate a baby boy known as Jaehaerys, who would be, I guess, the next heir after Aegon. Is that what's going on here?

[00:04:09] Like, why are they killing Jaehaerys? He would be like the prince, the Prince of Dragonstone if Aegon was the true ruler. He is his next step. He is his rightful heir. Yeah. And now he is dead, allegedly. So I got a lot of questions about this scene Mari.

[00:04:26] Okay. So you want to start right here? We're going to start at the top? I want to start with the big picture first. I want to get into this baby's death. Daemon orders the death of Aemond. They say, what if we can't find him?

[00:04:41] He's like, oh, well, we'll see. And we don't see what he's told them. But again, by the end of the episode, we're seeing an interaction between Blood and Cheese and Helena, I believe her name is. Yes, Helena, the queen. Yeah.

[00:04:56] And they're talking to the queen and they're trying to figure out which of these twin babies is the one with a cock. And they do land on the baby that she points at. She did point at the correct baby, right Mari? From what we understand, yes.

[00:05:11] So yeah, this iteration of Blood and Cheese, we get Rhaenyra declaring she wants Aemond. And we see Daemon actually sneaking back into King's Landing because he still has all his ties. He's the former Lord Commander of the Gold Cloaks, the City Watch.

[00:05:34] And Alicent and the Hightowers definitely don't have friends in some of the City Watch. So Daemon's actually inside the city for this. And he meets the Ratcatcher that we see earlier in the episode. And the Ratcatcher is like, yeah, I know the place.

[00:05:52] And they have this whole talk. And Daemon says he wants Aemond. And like you said, we don't get the instructions after that. But we do know the instructions are a son for a son. No matter what, the instructions are a son for a son.

[00:06:06] It's the name of the episode. It's widely known for the books, all of that. Blood says it several times once they're in the castle with the queen. This scene to me, when you read the book about it, again, no spoilers here. It rips your heart out.

[00:06:31] And I don't know if they accomplished that for me here. Because before we get that scene, we get like 10 minutes of these two fools bumbling around like they're the wet bandits from Hullo. Yes, the sticky bandits or walking stall. You know, the henchmen are running wild. I'm... What?

[00:06:55] To have them just like, oh yeah. He's like, I don't know these top floors. What? You don't know the top floors? The one guy is like, well, let's just run around. They land, they find Queen Helena.

[00:07:10] And the hijinks of it all almost to me kind of took me out of it in a sense. I don't know. How did that feel to you as somebody who didn't know what was about to happen? I mean, that's a really good point.

[00:07:25] It does remind me, you know, since they did come off very incompetent. What were those demons that Hercules, that were sent to kill Hercules in the movie? Pain and panic. It wasn't giving that same energy like you got one job.

[00:07:40] You got to go take out, make him human, kill him. And they show up and they're like, which person was it? Where is the body? I'm sorry, where do they sleep? They sleep up there. What are we doing here? And it's like, which baby is it?

[00:07:52] Point me in the direction. Well, she wouldn't tell me which baby it is, but maybe she would. And then they just run off and they do the thing. But we get Helena's point of view of her running down the hall trying to rescue the other child.

[00:08:05] And so we don't really get to sit in that moment of they're killing this baby. We also don't really know this child that well. So it's like, it's not like I don't feel as connected to the death of this child.

[00:08:17] In fact, the only interaction I've ever seen with this child wasn't great. J'Hara's at the small council. Not my favorite thing in the world. Get this kid out of here. I'm sorry.

[00:08:26] Yeah, the thing we do see what they set up earlier in the episode is King Aegon is looking for J'Hara. He wants him to sit in on the small council. And if you watch the special, I always love watching a little special at the end of the show.

[00:08:41] The show creator said that he feels like Aegon's incompetency is rooted in the fact that his father Viserys never trained him to be the heir because I wonder why, because he didn't think he was heir.

[00:08:55] Anyways, so they said it might be him trying to right that wrong with him bringing J'Hara to small council. J'Hara is like five. What is he really going to do? But other than ask for pony rides.

[00:09:10] But it's telling that during this, this council meeting where very important stuff is happening, they're talking about all of their allies. They're talking about how they lost the Vale. They're talking about how now they have the Baratheons because Aemond is engaged to one of them.

[00:09:25] They're talking about how the Hightowers are gathering their banners over there in the Reach and they're talking about how the Lannisters are gathering their Westermen. This is very important stuff and they're just talking about rallying their troops, but what to do with it.

[00:09:42] We get this moment of levity with Aegon indulging J'Hara or at least trying to and everybody in the room being like, dog, we do not have time for this. You know what I'm saying?

[00:09:54] They definitely did this so that we could connect with J'Hara before his death, but I also think they did it to pad out the time. Is it egregious? No. Is it an interesting scene? I think it is.

[00:10:08] I think it starts to tell you how Aegon is handling his kingship. So it's much needed. Him bringing in a child to the small council is wild. It's one thing if you're trying to train this kid up, but he has no clue what's going on.

[00:10:25] He's not involved at all. If anything, he's just picking on the other people in the small council as much as he can, just making a disruption. But then just the air that Aegon has about himself, like, oh, is my baby really throwing you off your game? I'm sorry.

[00:10:42] I guess we'll get you out of here too. Like, no, you brought a kid here. I'm sorry. I'm not familiar with this guy's work. I didn't know he can just do this. But that was funny though. Everybody was like, Lord Tylan, come on now.

[00:10:54] Like, damn, you letting a baby do this to you? It's just a baby. Get over it. Why is the baby here? I'll give Alyson one thing. She rides for Aegon, you know, because anybody else would have been like, this man is an

[00:11:08] idiot and I need to get him far away from this throne. But she's telling her dad, Otto, throughout this entire episode that we got to ride with Aegon as long as we can, because eventually he's not going to care about the throne anymore.

[00:11:20] And we'll just run it, you know, as the hand and the queen regent, I guess. We'll just, hey, we'll just do all the stuff. He'll let us do it because he doesn't care about it.

[00:11:29] So we just got to ride this out because she should have definitely told him, like, get Tylan out of here. I mean, Tylan and his baby, they can go. We don't need this, especially if they're going to be disruptive. But she would roll her eyes at Tylan too.

[00:11:41] Alyson and her kids, this is going to be a fun journey for me. Yeah. I mean, one thing she's going to do is definitely ride for them. That's why this whole war has started. Except for Aemond. Because we see here in this scene that she's mad at Aemond.

[00:12:00] He walks into the council meeting. She's like, why are you here? And Aegon's like, I brought him here. He's my best sword. Like he needs to be here. But you can tell she's mad because I think at the end of last season, Alyson really was

[00:12:15] still trying to settle this without too much bloodshed. But she knows that the moment that Lucerys dies, there's really no going back. Even though she's trying to be willfully ignorant, she's still hoping. She's still sent peace terms. She's being willfully ignorant, but she knows.

[00:12:36] That's why it's manifesting in her being mad at Aemond. Because once you take somebody's child away, the talking really does cease. It's over. Yeah. And so Aemond comes in. He looks at the map and he's like, we need a toehold in the Riverlands. We need to secure Harrenhal.

[00:12:59] And this will set up what's going to be the main conflict for the whole season. But yeah, he just comes in. Matter of factly, says the most military type thing that makes the most sense. And then goes and sits down.

[00:13:14] And again, people are like, Alison is mad, but Otto and Aegon are like, let that boy live. And it's just clear that the Green Council right now are just all not on the same page.

[00:13:28] But more than likely, the events of Blood and Cheese will get them all on the same page in a sense. Yeah, it'll galvanize them probably because now the baby's dead and now we all have a joint enemy.

[00:13:39] I think everybody's trying to go along this journey for victory a different way. We see Alison and Otto talking and he's like, so what does victory look like for you? She's like, Rhaenyra bending the knee, Aegon being on the throne.

[00:13:51] Everything's peaceful just like my dad wanted, like my husband wanted. And Otto like, yeah, if you say it like that, sure. That's exactly what I want. But let's be realistic. Rhaenyra is not bending the knee. Her child has been murdered.

[00:14:08] And throughout this entire episode, we see her grieving from beginning to end because we imagine that she gets the news of her son being murdered and she gets it via Raven from someone who is retelling these events. But she doesn't know it for a fact that that's happened.

[00:14:27] And I'm assuming as a mom, she just doesn't want to believe it either. So we see her. She hasn't been very tapped in. Daemon's very annoyed with her. She hasn't been tapped in because she's waiting on proof of death.

[00:14:37] She needs to see the body, see something to really let her know, OK, this wasn't some freak accident. This wasn't the storm and him flying. You know, the dragon did something like this is literally he was murdered by his uncle. And yeah, and that's exactly what it was.

[00:14:56] And so, yeah, this is going to be tough times for Rhaenyra as well. She's down bad. Yeah, and I think that they did a good job with like three character developments all within this storyline that is actually also very logical.

[00:15:10] We hear of Rhaenyra's like disappearance or, you know, because Melis and Rhaenys come back and Daemon's like, I just want to fly to King's Landing and get this over with. And their whole let's take our dragons and go somewhere, you know, type deal.

[00:15:31] Rhaenys is like she needs to grieve. She needs to know she needs that validation. And if anybody, you know, anybody out there who's lost a loved one, which I know both

[00:15:41] of us have, it truly is one of those things where at least for me, when you go to the funeral, when you go to the wake, when you view the body, that is normally where the where the the connection is like made.

[00:15:55] It starts to set in for real. Yes, it's much easier to to face that reality once you once you've grieved properly and you've reconciled. There it is when you've reconciled that the person is gone by seeing their remains.

[00:16:12] So and of course, Rhaenys herself has lost both her kids to her. So she understands Damon is a hothead and they give the development because Rhaenys is like, I don't got to listen to you. You're not worth it.

[00:16:29] You're not even really being I'm just here because I don't like her. You know, I mean, and so like and so you see how Damon so far is being treated if he's like the King consort innocent, you know, because it's still early times.

[00:16:45] And so the scene with Rhaenyra finding the dragon wing and Luke's cloak, but not Luke's body. But I mean, it's still presumed and that is book accurate. Like they never find Luke's body. They just found remnants of his dragon.

[00:17:02] And then also her dragon like Cyrex, you know, roaring and all that. I do believe Ereks is came from a clutch of her eggs as well. So it's kind of like both that her and her dragon lost both their kids. And in a sense, yeah.

[00:17:16] So they're both they're both sad. And I thought that this moment, this was really good. This is like kind of like how you grieve. I think this this was great. And it kind of gets us back in there because then making the decision to split up Luke's

[00:17:31] death at the end of last season to the grieving process for him this season kind of gets us as an audience back into their mindset because you split it up. You know what I'm saying?

[00:17:43] Yeah, I have a lot of respect for them in this scene between Damon and Rhaenys because one we know I love Rhaenys, you know, but I know this is them dragons. So I also know that my fingers is crossed every episode that she make it out alive.

[00:17:56] You know, we just we are we here with the Targaryens for a good time. Not a long time. We don't know where we know how this story ends. OK, so we know by the time Jon Snow shows up, these people will not be exist in existence

[00:18:08] So I'm going to try to hold on to my girl Rhaenys as long as possible. But Damon tells her, yeah, it's a son for a son because you and I are going to go and we're going to go kill her son and the dragon.

[00:18:20] So I need your dragon and my dragon because we're gonna go jump his dragon because quite as it's kept, they got the bigger dragons on team green, you know, so it's like you've got to go in there and decide, OK, well, the dragon lost the sun too.

[00:18:33] So we we want to come in here and take all of this to make things even. But to me, it still feels like Damon blames Rhaenys for not just ending it all when she does her big escape. Yeah.

[00:18:44] And so, yeah, he's like, had you just killed them when you had the chance? And Rhaenys is like, well, I don't care. You know, this ain't my like this ain't my fight no more. This is between y'all. Yeah. Why are we why are we dwelling on this?

[00:18:56] And even on the green side, they're like, oh, we could have killed them all before. It's like could or should have. Now we're at war, y'all. Like, let's move on. Let's move on. We talked about Alice a little bit. You know, this my girl. I am gang green.

[00:19:12] The Green Gang, team green. She out here getting busy, Mari. She is she has found her way into the arms of Kristen Cole or he had found his way into the legs of her. And we were told we saw the discussion.

[00:19:26] This was going to be the last hookup that they were going to have. But when she found out that Jahaerys was murdered. Yeah, she was, you know, in the act of that not being the last time that they was going to be together.

[00:19:39] What do you think about in general? What do you think about Kristen Cole and Alice now that they have found each other, you know, at this stage in her queendom, I guess? It's very hypocritical. You know what I'm saying? It's like, I don't know.

[00:19:53] What do you mean you don't know? I don't know. That dude was like, I'm not going to be your whore. I'm going to go to this side. I'm right. We're righteous over here. Seven for the star just for them to be knocking boots like very hypocritical. Sir, please.

[00:20:07] Oh, yeah. Come come come defend your peoples because all right. None of this. So it make a little sense. OK, so hear me out. Yeah. Allison, she she's messing around with Kristen Cole. Kristen Cole was on the wrong side of history.

[00:20:23] He was with the team black and Raniere had him out here losing his honor and going against his oaths and stuff like that. Allison, a Allison is a single woman. She is not to be wedded to anybody that we know of. Huh? Rainier was single at the time.

[00:20:41] But but but yes, but yes, Rainier was supposed to be saving her purity. Allison purity being gone. OK. And Kristen Cole purity being gone. What oath is he breaking? He only can break a vow of celibacy one time. You know what?

[00:20:58] He he was supposed to never have sex. He already broke that rule. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. So but these two consenting adults doing what they doing with neither one of them are beholden to any rules or regulations right now. I'm sorry, Allison.

[00:21:13] Get yours. You should be through a lot. This is man logic. This is man. He's breaking his oath of celibacy. Every time he's having sex. No, you only break the oath one time. You say I'm never going to have sex. You did it once. Boom, you're out.

[00:21:27] You're free. Double jeopardy. You can't get tried for this twice. Oh, my God. Yeah, this is definitely some male logic. I'm sorry. She he's innocent. Allison just trying to have listen. This lady was laid up under Baceres and his rotting life like his life filled rotting corpse

[00:21:45] at the same time. Like this man is dying on top of her and she's giving him babies. Let her have Sir. Kristen Cole, you know, I'm saying they together. They basically go together. Mar this completely gives up their like moral high ground. Like it was more.

[00:21:58] They are on the right. Look, Mari. We are not on the right side. Listen, Allison is single. Crystal Cole ain't got no more balance. He broke up. It's selling that white Coke is selling. He I don't worry about it. It was nothing when he got to her.

[00:22:13] Exactly because it was already suddenly you can't unseal the rope once. Once it's suddenly it's good. You know, it says like you can't get your purity back is out there. I'm sorry. It's a good to go.

[00:22:23] Do you think you know Queen Regent look mama gotta have a life to Mari? I don't know what's wrong with you. Okay, very hypocritical over here over there. I mean different situation apples and oranges. I'm that we just cannot complain.

[00:22:37] We cannot compare, you know, the incoming Queens of the incoming Queens duties to nobility and to purity to this Queen of a certain age who's lived her life had her kids had a marriage can still get her groove back there Mari. So you hate her.

[00:22:57] I mean, so we can get her groove back when she's not pretending that she's like the holiest of Holies. I mean, you know, she I mean she do kind of be like, you know, she kind of look at look

[00:23:11] down on people a little bit because they are here doing the wild stuff. And she has not broken any rules. I just don't think that there's any, you know, I don't think she's beholden to anything on the side.

[00:23:21] I'm just saying I'm looking waiting on evidence a contrary but it sounds like this man showed up sullied and she took him in, you know, she should have left him out in the streets whatever helps you sleep at night.

[00:23:32] Anyway, so that's where we find Allison when she finds out about your hair is in the episode ends with her dealing with that. I'm assuming now like, you know blood has been drawn on both sides at first. It was an eye then it was the Sun now.

[00:23:46] It's the next child right? And so because of this now I was like, okay, it's personal, you know, even Helena in the episode. She said I was never worried about the dragons. I was worried about the rats and the rats were really the reason that they were able

[00:24:00] to get in the blood and cheese of it all is how they were able to get through the tunnels and make their way to her because they felt like okay. Well, we got the biggest dragon.

[00:24:08] So everything should be safe but Damon able to you know, weaponize his white worm my Syria and get that information and and utilize it has really given team black. I guess the upper hand in this situation, but Mari, I really want to talk about my Syria

[00:24:24] and Damon because they will stick as thieves now. He didn't lost his bottom, you know, you know, yeah, very interesting. I was wondering how they were going to do this because at the end of last season, they made it seem like Larris burned down the white worms house.

[00:24:47] Like remember we it was one of those scenes where they're walking away and they got rid of her. I think after the whole after they found a God and all of that, but she manages to escape as a stowaway in and make it to Dragonstone.

[00:25:05] And yeah, her and Damon are not on speaking terms. And again, I think it's mostly here. This is mostly here because just to show you how far Damon has fallen like he can't even control the person that will your hose.

[00:25:22] Yeah, you create big shot once a control your hose, you let them talk to you crazy, you know, you go, you know, like he can't even get her help. But it's also because he doesn't, he doesn't trust her, which is kind of like rightfully

[00:25:35] so because you know, we saw he feels like she put help put a gun on the throne because she was the one who hit him. We all know that she was the one who hit him and was able to give him up after his hair died.

[00:25:49] Which, which, which Negro was that Eric or Eric, whichever one. That was Eric. Yeah. Eric was like, nah, she's, she's, she's right. Like she wasn't, she wasn't an agent of his, which is, you know, I mean, it's again, it's

[00:26:04] hard to believe when you play in the shadows and you play in the whispers and you, you can be bought with coin. It can be hard to know where your true loyalties lie.

[00:26:15] So but she does seem seemingly do him the favor here in helping connect him with blood and cheese in a sense. So yeah, she's here. I don't, I, I don't know how much more we'll be seeing of her.

[00:26:34] Well, I was going to say the same thing because so she trades this information for her freedom because Damon is treating her like she's a traitor to the throne. She's like, bro, and this is a through line throughout the episode.

[00:26:46] Everybody's like, how could I be loyal to you when I was supposed to be loyal to the family? The, I didn't know who was in charge. So you can't be mad at me for doing what you asked me to do.

[00:26:57] So her argument is like, yeah, I'm a whore and I was paid for my service. It had nothing to do with like our relationship. It might have, but I mean, still at the end of the day, I have needs and I need it.

[00:27:08] I need, I need to do stuff. So he's like, whatever, I'm gonna throw you in jail. So then he goes and gets her like, hey, I'll let you out. But you know, you got to do something for me.

[00:27:17] So I'm assuming once you let her out, we can't have too much of her running around because she's now playing both sides. You know, she's going, she's, she's open to the highest bidder when it comes to like her loyalty.

[00:27:28] She can be bought and I don't, I don't know. I don't know if they have to like just say, okay, well she's leaving or if I'm worried about her life, you know, in the game because I'm trying to figure out why she felt like

[00:27:41] she had so much leverage in the first place. I mean, don't get me wrong. Damon does need her, but we've seen how they treat women in this time, you know? And so I'm just, I'm shocked. They didn't just look up or anybody honestly who they can't trust.

[00:27:53] You know, they're like, well, you know, if you don't have a job, you have a job the next day you be dead. And so she could have ended up like the rest of the staff and just been murdered for her, you know, in subordination. So,

[00:28:03] Well, I mean, that's what the Hightowers did. You know what I'm saying? They, they tried to murder her after she helped them. So that's why she's over here. But again, and she could be a very valuable ally if Damon were to, you know, trust her fully

[00:28:20] or respect her. You know, just a lot of people when they get sent up in the thrones, Westeros, universe, they love like a good, shrewd whore, you know? Like remember, remember Shea. Remember how good like SHEA was? Yeah. I hated having a good hate into SHEA.

[00:28:38] But when I tell you she was like really willin' and dealin'. You know, I like when they make those moves and they show, okay, even though even the common folk are the people at the very bottom of, you know, of this hierarchy, when they are

[00:28:51] or if they're out here doing the politicking, they also are trying to do what's best for them. And not everybody is just going to sit by and get picked off. Some of these people are gonna try to take matters into their own hands. So I've been enjoying her,

[00:29:02] but again, I just don't know how much longer we can get this kind of shenanigans from somebody who was born of low blood. Yeah, yeah. But it's the people born of low blood who know the friends in low places who know all the secrets and all the whispers.

[00:29:17] So this is a tale as old as time. Think of Varys in Game of Thrones, like he was a street boy, a eunuch, all of that. They always make the best masters of whispers and ministers of whispers. It's canon. And again, it's whores know it all

[00:29:43] because everybody comes to brothels and they normally talk while they're there because they're drunk and getting it off. So this isn't surprising. And again, she could come into play later on. Yeah, so hopefully more to come. Because like I said, she's kind of entertaining.

[00:30:06] Like I said, I love the good shrewd whores that they put in the show. They be active and I like that. Another person we talked about a little bit, but I wanna get more into their reign here. King Aegon, the magnanimous, second of his name,

[00:30:19] king of the Andals and the Rhonar and the First Men and all that good stuff. Seven kingdoms, the several kingdoms. Yeah, protector of the realm. Aegon is interesting to me because I don't like Aegon. It's really hard to like Aegon because he does suck.

[00:30:37] I mean, all of this whole little bloodline sucks. But the show is kind of giving us, what if Aegon doesn't suck that bad? We see Aegon talking to the people, like you said, the lowborn people, the common folk. And they're coming to him with their grievances.

[00:30:54] Hey, remember those tithes we pay where you took a 10th of my sheep? I'm not gonna make it. So if you could just give those, like if you can help me out, throw us a little cash or something like that.

[00:31:04] He's like, yeah, why don't we just give them back? Let's give the sheep back. And Aegon is trying to be a man of the people. He folds a couple of times to the other people while Otto is scoffing in the background and trying to shut everything down.

[00:31:17] Why does the show want us to like Aegon? Is it because we really need to hate Aemond? I don't think it's about wanting to like Aegon. It's more just showing how incompetent he is because remember, he didn't wanna be king. He didn't wanna be king.

[00:31:32] And until he got crowned and people started cheering him, that's when he was like, oh, okay, I can kind of do this. I think I can do this, yeah. Yeah, he just wants to buy the people's love. And he doesn't know that he can't.

[00:31:44] He doesn't know how to truly govern. And so it's not about trying to make us like Aegon. I think it's kind of just to show us how a bumbling kind of fool he is. And it's just funny to watch. Yeah, I mean, it is funny, you know?

[00:31:59] Because especially when you have Otto Hightower literally standing next to him being like, you know, we really can't do that. Wouldn't be great. You wanna fly out there with your dragons? Let's think about what happened last time somebody went on a dragon mission. Let's just think about that.

[00:32:13] Like, let's reel it back in. He's really trying to. I thought some of Aegon's legislation here, some of his campaign promises were pretty cool. He wanted to pay the man back. They said, no, you can't do that. We gotta feed the dragons. He said, okay, cool.

[00:32:25] Well, what about the Smiths? The black Smiths are out here. They say we gotta make weapons. We kinda need an advance on our pay because iron ain't cheap. We gotta get this stuff made. What's up? And Aegon says, that makes sense. We got money, take it.

[00:32:43] And again, Otto is fuming, but I was like, I mean, is he wrong? Don't they need weapons? Yeah, they need weapons, but they want you to make them and then we pay for it. Right, make them with whatever you can come up with

[00:32:56] and then we might pay you or we might take your sheep. Because I'm the king and you gotta do what I say. Yeah, and it's like, and do they have money? Yeah, that's a good question. Do they have money? I think Otto's thing is that he's like,

[00:33:10] you're the king, you can do whatever you want. Whereas Aegon is like, but that's not how kings are supposed to go. Kings are supposed to look after the people who look after them. Like I'm the king over y'all. I think you're putting a lot on Aegon.

[00:33:23] I think Aegon again is just trying to say yes to everything. Just saying yeah? Yeah, I think so. I think, cause again, he does not know the actual ins and outs of what it takes to run a country. So he's like, yeah, that makes sense.

[00:33:39] You pay somebody for their labor in advance. And it's like, sir, no, it doesn't make sense because we don't know if we're really going to war. So we have to get ready for war, but not ready enough that we have to spend our money

[00:33:50] or not feed our dragons. Like it's all preparation and he just doesn't understand that. Well, now he has, is it Laerys who's in his ears Mari? Yeah. So Laerys goes to him. It's been an instance to me really, but okay. Yeah, so Laerys goes to him and says,

[00:34:10] hey man, ain't it crazy that your grandsire just be all up in your business like that? Like, bro, he just, he won't let you live. You can't make no decisions. It'd be wild if you like, you know, didn't have him as the hand, wouldn't it be crazy?

[00:34:25] And he makes this argument basically saying, you know your dad had a reputation for being weak. You know, he's unappliable, but he definitely means like your daddy really didn't make any strong decisions. And that's kind of what he's remembered for.

[00:34:38] Do you want to be remembered the same way? And Aegon seems receptive, but the solution that Laerys floats out is like, well, the thing that you and your dad had in common is that y'all both have the same hand and that's Otto Hightower.

[00:34:50] And so what are you going to do about that? And so it looks like now Laerys is making the move to put a rift between Otto and Aegon even though I don't think it would have taken much. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the motivations here to me are unclear.

[00:35:10] Could just be set dressing to grease the wheels for what's to come. But like, why does Laerys like care? I, you know, he's not going to become the hand like at least, you know, he's not going to be the first person I think about it, you know.

[00:35:28] And we don't see Laerys and Otto being at odds with each other. So is it like, is it very much like giving Peter Baelish chaos as a ladder? Let me just fuck him up. You know what I mean? A little bit. Don't it feel like it?

[00:35:46] Cause I think we see Laerys talking to somebody else in the episode too. And he's like, yeah, isn't it crazy what's happening here? You know, he like, he just keeps popping up whenever some chaos is happening. And I like, he's stoking the flames

[00:35:58] but I haven't figured out exactly what his, like you said, what his motivation is and why he's doing this. Right, cause he, what we know of him is he's basically was Alicent's lapdog. So what, you know, what are you doing here?

[00:36:12] Even Alicent, that's, he was talking to Alicent and he was like, I was trying to get in touch with you earlier, but you were busy. Feeling like it was hinting like he knows of her about her and Cole. Yeah. And he tells her like,

[00:36:27] I've interrogated everybody who's on your staff. Anybody who is not, who's not with it, they're dead. So like he, and it seems like even again, Alicent is like, why are you here? But it's like, he has to be here

[00:36:45] because he kind of has so many things on all of us. Like he has, he knows all of our secrets. So we have to put up with him. That's what it feels like. Yeah. I got a good hate in Tolaris already, you know, just in general.

[00:36:58] Cause he's just, I think it's like the same hate that we have for Bayliss, you know? It was like, we see you doing stuff, it's raggedy and we want you to get caught, you know? Cause I'm really preying on his downfall.

[00:37:10] But I do think, I like seeing people make moves, but again, I need them to get, I need the moves to catch up with them eventually. Yeah. Yes. So one of the other stories in this episode that we kind of brush over a little bit,

[00:37:25] my boy is back. Corlys is back. Mari, they pulled him out of the water. What happened with Corlys? So of course, Corlys was recuperating from, you know, once Laenor died, perceived death, Corlys went to the Stepstones to fight for like six years. We all know that.

[00:37:47] And he sustained a wound and he was taken to the hospital. And it preceded the event, what happened in episode eight of last season, Lord of the Tides, where they were talking about the succession. He's back.

[00:38:05] I think he came back at the end of last season too, right? Didn't we see him in episode 10? I believe. Yeah, I believe so. That's when we saw he wasn't dead. He wasn't dead. Yeah. So now he's sad because his heir, Luke, is gone.

[00:38:21] And Luke, he really wanted Luke to succeed him. So, you know, we see him, his ship is not in good shape because again, of his adventures in the Stepstones. And you could tell he just kind of wants to get back out there to help

[00:38:41] because the blockade and all that is happening, but he's not out there helping. Rhaenys is out there with her dragon circling, making sure the blockade goes well. It's a blockade of ships that's choking off the gullet that is choking off trade to King's Landing.

[00:38:57] So we see that he wants to get back out there. We see a familiar face. I'll tell you more about them in the Mac Meisters corner. Oh, we're talking about Alan the- Alan of Hull. Alan of Hull. Gotcha. Yeah, I said, okay, put a pin in this man.

[00:39:15] We'll be back to talk about him a little bit later. Another pairing that we saw that probably to me felt a little surprising was Aemond and Criston Cole. They seem like they have taken to planning a strategy outside of what the King and the Hand

[00:39:34] and Alicent want them to do. Otto ends up going to Aemond and kind of basically threatening him, saying, you know, like, it'd be crazy if you was going against the King. That'd be wild if you was doing stuff that me and your mom, you know,

[00:39:46] we don't really support that, you know? Hopefully you ain't doing nothing wild. And Otto says something very interesting. He says, Aemond, you know, I'm expecting you to do the right thing because we know your brother can't control his impulses. And I was like, Aegon can't control his impulses?

[00:40:05] You're telling this to the man with one eye because he stole a dragon? Make it make sense. So I don't know how to feel about, you know, the show basically showing me that Aegon is incompetent, but also the impulsive one.

[00:40:21] But Aemond, who we know is the crazy one, based on what I've seen is nuts, but he's less nuts than Aegon? I'm really struggling with this dichotomy. No, it's just in different ways. Like, Aegon can't control his impulses with his drinking, with his whoring around, his raping,

[00:40:43] him just being a buffoon. He can't control that. Aemond is a psychopath, so he can't control his murderous tendencies. So they're both just a little different, you know? You can see Aegon as the weak one and Aemond as the strong, competent, slightly crazy warrior.

[00:41:04] This happens a lot in the Targaryen history, the history of the Targaryens and their lineage as kings. It always does seem to be one brother that kind of is weak and ineffectual and another one who is strong, but none of them are really well-rounded.

[00:41:23] So I'm not shocked here. Aemond, everybody including Aemond, even he even said it in the last season, feel like he could be a better king than Aegon, but they have to go by the birthrights. And also, can he be a better king than Aegon?

[00:41:43] Like I said, I'm still, this man is wild. You know, look, Alicent rolls her eyes when he walks in the room, she's like, oh God, who invited you here? And that's her own kid. That's your kid, and you did this.

[00:41:56] She's like, dang, brother, what are you doing here? You know, so I'm leaning toward whatever Alicent thinks is probably right here. That Aegon, it's probably fine. Like we can deal with Aegon, he's dumb, but eventually we'll be able to kind of control him.

[00:42:11] Whereas Aemond, oh, Aemond gonna do what he wanna do every time. He's like baby Daemon. Yeah, exactly. He is a mini Daemon. And that's what we're kind of seeing here with him and Cole and their strategizing the battlefield approach. They're like, they should,

[00:42:29] they recognize like they did before that the Riverlands is the key to all this. They map out like where to march up through the Riverlands and all of that. And I'm very interested in seeing how this season is going to translate to the show

[00:42:50] because that's all it is. It's a lot of like military marching. It's a lot of like battles and stuff like that, but not like, I don't wanna say like small battles, but you know what I'm saying? Like test moves.

[00:43:06] It's like, we won't get a battle of the bastards anytime soon, like not soon. But in the meantime, there will be like skirmishes and stuff like that. So I'm really interested to see how the audience reacts. I would kind of compare it to,

[00:43:24] I wanna say the end of season one, maybe season two of Game of Thrones, you know how Rob was like marching and we got like scenes from battle. Yeah, going to get his allies here, going here and even across this bridge, all that kind of stuff, yeah.

[00:43:41] Yeah, exactly. And you know, that's where Tyrion meets Shae when he's camping with his father's army to meet. Yeah, so it's gonna be a lot of that before we get to the big stuff. So I'm wondering if these small moments where they're plotting it out

[00:43:59] is so that they're like, pay attention here because we're gonna do this a few times. You know what I'm saying? It's like, so you can ease people into it. But yeah, they're plotting an actual campaign because they're saying like, as much as Alicent

[00:44:15] is again being delusional about peace, they all have to be prepared. It is literally war. Like why are we acting like this is not war? This is war, we need to be prepared and this is what we should do. My favorite thing is about those moments

[00:44:30] of the tactical moments, where they're at the small council or when they're sitting around the little maps and they're pushing the pieces around. Yeah, I love that because they always say names and I'm like the leader in art of the Caprio meme

[00:44:41] where I'm like, oh, I know that person. Yeah, because they're like, oh yeah, what about, did you hear about Greyjoy? Why don't we make them the core? I was like, Greyjoy? I was like, I know them. Yeah, and so in this episode,

[00:44:53] we had a couple of those moments. I heard a lot of name drops but we get a look at the wall, Mari. We get a whole little scene about the Night's Watch and we meet Cregan Stark, I believe is his name.

[00:45:07] And he's talking to Jace who goes and visits him. And they're talking about how the North owes a duty to the Seven Kingdoms and that we get down like the backstory about the Night's Watch and the Stark's legacy. And I wasn't really expecting for the wall

[00:45:22] to come into play so early, Mari. Not only the wall, it was Winterfell too. Yeah. I thought it was very smart. We barely leave, this is the opening. I think it was very smart to transport people back to something that's like comfort because it starts at Winterfell.

[00:45:40] They're there during the picking of the tent. They say one in every 10 people go to take their vows at the Night's Watch because like they said, I think they brought it up in Game of Thrones. The Night's Watch, it was an honor.

[00:45:55] Like back in the day, which is this time period, joining the Night's Watch was an honor. And normally like second sons, third sons, they would commit their lives to the Night's Watch, especially up in the North. In the North, it is a great honor to your family

[00:46:09] to join the Night's Watch. Of course, by the time we get to Game of Thrones, they're just sending thieves and rapists and all sorts of criminals up there because nobody is volunteering as they used to. So we see this and then we see Jace and Craigan,

[00:46:25] like Craigan is taking them through it and to the wall. And gosh darn it, if these bad wigs aren't back, like what was that wig on Craigan's head? I'm like y'all, it's season two. There was a couple nasty, nasty wigs, Mari. I'm sorry. Yeah.

[00:46:46] Yeah, Rhaenyra's living child also came in. I said, what did they do to your head? And in the meantime, boy, they didn't- Jace. I thought his hair was- It just looked kinda like, it didn't give me the same vibe from first season.

[00:46:59] I thought it was gonna get better. Well, it's longer. Yeah, it's longer. And I was like, tidy that up. You know? But I don't know. Tidy that up. You know? Yeah. Yeah, they bring a hat to Westeros or to Winterfell next time. You know, that's all I'm saying.

[00:47:13] So yeah, Craigan and Jace are on the wall and Craigan tells this story, which is a great story. It is in the book talking about how King Jaehaerys and Queen Alysanne, they came and they visited the wall. And this is King Jaehaerys,

[00:47:28] the one who was seen in the first season after heading the great council and all that. Him and his wife, they came up to the wall and they paid them a visit. Queen Alysanne bestowed lots of gifts on the Night's Watch and all of that.

[00:47:41] And they tried to fly south. I mean, south. They tried to fly north of the wall and their dragons would not do it. Their dragons would like turn right around. They're like, no, no, no, no, no. There's something out there.

[00:47:53] So Craigan is trying to explain to Jace like, yeah, we got your back, but dude, like I get y'all are squabbling. It's the same thing in Game of Thrones. It's the same thing that Jon Snow was so stubborn about. It's like, this is cool and all,

[00:48:10] y'all fighting for that iron chair, but there's scary things out here. And that's what Craigan is telling Jace, but he does pledge loyalty to him. He says he'll send like 2000 graybeards, seasoned men for him. And Jace has a successful meeting. Craigan Stark and Jace,

[00:48:31] I wish they could have flushed that relationship out a little more, but it's fine. And Jace gets the news about his brother's death at the wall, all book accurate. He goes home to report to his mother that he actually completed his mission.

[00:48:47] We didn't get to see which kind of sucks. He visited Lady Jane Arryn in the Vale. And of course, Lady Jane Arryn said that she would fight with them mostly because not only is she blood kin to Rhaenyra because they're related through her mom's side,

[00:49:04] but if they can oust Rhaenyra for the throne, then somebody could oust Lady Jane for her ruling the Vale, because if they say women can't rule seats, then her claim could be unsettled. She just wants a dragon. And so I think they said it here,

[00:49:29] Joffrey is gonna go, the youngest son is gonna go with his dragon to the Vale and stay there while the war ensues. So we didn't get to see Lady Jane Arryn, but it's fine. Again, that's all she does here at this juncture.

[00:49:45] So no need to muddle it up and get people confused. But the biggest thing is Jace completes his mission, but he's sad because what was it for? They lose his little brother and they're still grieving there. And this was a really good scene between him and Rhaenyra.

[00:50:04] Yeah, and Craig and Stark actually said something in that conversation with Jace that caught my attention. Apparently Torrhen Stark once bent the knee. Yeah, and I believe he said, you at least have the decency to not threaten me with a dragon. So although he's like Alessand,

[00:50:23] I believe it was in Jaehaerys, they pull up on a dragon, but that's not like a peaceful gesture. I think it was like you drive up to somebody's house with a tank, right? No, he's talking about King Torrhen Stark who bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror.

[00:50:38] So when Aegon's conquest to unite the seven kingdoms. Yeah, King Torrhen bends the knee to Aegon because Aegon threatens him. And at this point, Aegon has already burned down like half of the Westeros. So Torrhen Stark is like, I'll bend the knee.

[00:51:00] And because Aegon is like, it's too cold up here anyways, you can- Right, I'll leave you alone. I'm like a warden of the North, yeah. Yeah, you got it. No, but Jaehaerys and Alessand were like great benefactors of the North. They're like some of the only,

[00:51:17] at this point, some of the only rulers to actually go up there and offer as much assistance as they did. They named a whole patch of land after Queen Alessand because she gifted them extra land from the wall and it's called Queen Alessand's Gift.

[00:51:35] So she's a great queen, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, good information. Mara, is there anything else from the episode that we missed? Yes. We do have to talk about, let's see. We've broken down the sides, but they've only talked about it, right? They've only talked about it.

[00:52:05] So right now on team black, I just wanna reset the board for everybody. Right now for Rhaenyra, they have Lady Jaehaerys and all her support in the Vale and which would be the mountainous areas too. So, and that would include like Runestone, like the Royces, all of that.

[00:52:27] They also have now the Starks in the North and their 2,000 men. Normally what comes with the Starks are their bannermen as well. And they have a Driftmark with Rhaenyra, with Rhaenys, oh God, these names, and Corlys. So if you look at the map,

[00:52:48] basically Rhaenyra has all of the Eastern side of Westeros. And then like we said in the council meeting, Aegon and team green have the Hightowers, they have the Lannisters and they have the Baratheons. So they have like the whole West side.

[00:53:06] So basically cracked it in two, you know? And I like that at this point we're just kind of setting the stage and everybody's getting ready. Yeah. So that's it. Everything else I can talk about in the spoiler section. And I guess it's time to get there.

[00:53:29] So Maester Mari, you got the receipts. You are the keeper of the receipts. You're the keeper of book information, the great scrolls. And so I think now is a good time to go to Maester Mari's book corner. The library is open.

[00:53:41] Mari will be reading it and letting us know what we need to know that is kind of spoilery from the book that was not involved in this episode. So if you do not wanna hear this, this is your time to tap out.

[00:53:52] Thank you for listening to Recap K-Back. Please be sure to subscribe to the podcast, recapkickback.com slash subscribe. Definitely throw us a subscribe on YouTube. Hit that like button if you haven't already done it and make sure you leave a comment in the comment section

[00:54:05] because we need more people to join the House of the Dragons, Hot D, Westeros Kickback. But if you are here for that action, we got it coming your way. So thank you all for listening. And then everybody else sit tight because Mari's about to let us know

[00:54:20] what was a little different in the book that involved the events of this episode. Mari, take it away. Okay, so I'm gonna start with the biggest thing. I'm gonna start with the biggest thing and it's blood and cheese. Like blood and cheese,

[00:54:36] the buildup to this has been so monumental. People have been waiting for it. And I'm just kind of mad because the scene lacks everything that I wish it didn't. And it's very annoying. So the difference between the blood and cheese scene from the books to the shows

[00:54:56] mostly is the fact that Helena and Aegon actually have three kids. They have Jaehaerys and Jaehaerys, the two twins that we see here in the show. And then they have a son who's, I think it's like Malus, Malus is his name or little Maegor or something like that.

[00:55:18] One of the two, sorry, everybody's like, oh my God. But anyways, and he's the little son. He's three. So the twins are like five and then they have the younger son who's three. What happens is blood and cheese first, they go into Alicent's room

[00:55:38] and they tie Alicent up because they know that Helena brings the kids to see her every night for like the book reading. Helena comes in with all three of her kids, blood and cheese, they grab her up and they tell her we need a son for a son.

[00:55:56] You know what I'm saying? Helena says, kill me. They're like, nope, we need a son for a son. And they said, and you have to pick, you pick between Jaehaerys or Maegor. I think it's Maegor, yeah. And she doesn't wanna choose, rightfully so, but they're like, choose

[00:56:15] or we're killing all of you guys. And she actually chooses to kill her younger son. She wants them to kill her younger son. And- Maegor. Maegor, thank you, thank you. Maegor. They're all so close these names. We got, we working it through. Yeah, so Maegor.

[00:56:37] And maybe because she thought that he was so young, maybe because Jaehaerys was the true heir, it doesn't matter, she picks Maegor. Blood and Cheese or Blood tells Maegor like, you hear that? Your mom wants you dead. And then they killed Jaehaerys anyways. They like, one fell swoop.

[00:57:00] So- Did they kill both of them? No, they just killed Jaehaerys. Just like in the show, they just killed Jaehaerys but they killed the opposite of who she picked. Yeah. Yeah, and they do it in front of her and Alicent. And it breaks her, like it breaks Helene

[00:57:19] to the fact that like from that point on, she's just kind of like, she's just in her room sobbing basically. Right. Through most of the dance. And this is what also breaks Alicent. Like it completely just devastates her and hardens her hatred for Rhaenyra.

[00:57:40] So Alicent not being in that room to me, I thought was a misstep. I also thought it was a big misstep that like the whole Helene leaving and then finding Alicent in there with Kristen Cole. Like, I don't know. I don't know why they made that choice.

[00:57:59] I don't think that was, I don't think it was necessary. I would have rather, I think I would have rathered the character development of Alicent seeing her grandchild be killed, especially since she did all this waffling throughout the episode.

[00:58:16] I think that would have been a much better character arc. I don't know why, like we just had to prove that her and Kristen Cole were actually having sex. They weren't just like screwing around. And poor Helene who is just like, you know, can't process it,

[00:58:31] you know, brings her child there. And then the whole like her pointing out which one, again, because there's not a third option there. I don't think that, I think that took away from the moment as well. I don't know.

[00:58:45] What do you think from just from what I'm telling you? Yeah, so I think, yeah, I think for one, yeah, bring us the third baby. It would have taken nothing. It would have literally taken nothing. You have so many children running around the show

[00:58:54] and I don't know their names. So it would have taken two seconds for you to be like, oh, there's another child. Yeah, and I think they had a third child and, but I don't know. I guess he just wasn't involved in the moment. Right, yeah.

[00:59:05] But he's nowhere to be found in this moment. So, you know, I like your version better. I'm not gonna lie to you. That sounds a little bit better, you know, because I did think it felt to me kind of like we had the pain and panic,

[00:59:15] that kind of bumbling over this and they just kind of screwed it up. Like, oh yeah, just give me this kid, you know, whichever one she, like, we're not even gonna check. We just don't go with whichever child she says because I'm just gonna read on her face

[00:59:26] that she's telling the truth. You know, for me, I was like, all right. Cause that's why my first question coming in was like, is this the right kid? You know, how do we know? You know, so that's how I felt about that.

[00:59:37] Now, as far as her walking in on Allison, maybe this is to make her like, the show is gonna go with a, like a spin on. She doesn't trust Allison anymore either. Right? Like, so now she like, she comes in, she's obviously scarred by what just happened.

[00:59:51] Like she's broken, but she also sees her granny's doing some weird stuff too. And she like, hey, I can't even turn to you because you're one of the rats too. You know what I'm saying? Like I was worried about the rats, but now it's everybody around here.

[01:00:02] I'm not really feeling it. I'm about to check out completely. But like I said, I do prefer what you're talking about. Because Allison being in that room, that feels very Game of Thrones. That feels very much like we coming out of season one

[01:00:15] out the gate and we're like, whoa, we got, she gonna kill her in front of her mom, like in front of the granny. You know what I'm saying? Like that's the kind of thing that I'm like, I kind of missed that. I kind of missed that moment.

[01:00:25] It's a punch. But now that you've explained to me what it could have been, I'm like, I would have liked that a little bit more. Yeah. And that's what everybody was seeing as like, this should be like a red wedding, purple wedding moment. But it wasn't.

[01:00:38] Like the blood and cheese in the books were much more cunning. Like cheese, the rat catcher was very cunning in the book. Like he led them directly there. He knew their routes. He's the one who actually like gets away at the end of all of it.

[01:00:54] And so like for him, for them both to just be so stupid, it was just kind of like a let down. It was a real let down for me. The only thing I can think of for the Allison portion of it is like maybe she'll blame herself.

[01:01:08] Because she was doing the do when all this happened. So maybe it'll stop them from doing the do. I don't know. We'll have to see. But also a change, which is a big change. And I'll tell you why I think they did this.

[01:01:25] So Damon, them confirming that Damon was behind it makes sense. But in the books, it's just kind of understood that he's behind it. Like all we know in the books is like once he finds out about Luke's death,

[01:01:44] he sends a note to Rhaenyra saying a son for a son. And then blood and cheese show up and they're saying a son for a son. And the book is like, the book hints like, we pretty much think Damon's behind this because he has friends

[01:02:03] in again, all of those little places, friends in the city watch. It was more likely him. So I mean, them confirming it's him, that's fine to me. Cause we all think it's him. Everybody knows it's kind of him. But the problem that I don't really like here

[01:02:18] is Rhaenyra says, I want Aemond. And of course she wants Aemond because Aemond killed Luke, but that's not in the book. And for her to tell that to Damon and for Damon to be like, hey guys, I want you to kill Aemond.

[01:02:33] But then they stupidly kill a child. It feels like to me that they did that so that people wouldn't turn on team black. You know what I'm saying? Like, does that make sense? Like, I don't think they wanted people to be like,

[01:02:48] Rhaenyra and Damon to me in the books, a son for a son to Aegon. So Aegon's sons are young. So Rhaenyra and Damon literally are child killers. You know what I'm saying? Like they organized the killing of a child, but I felt like here in the show,

[01:03:07] they kind of wanted to give them an out, be like, oh, we want Aemond saying we want this guy, but then a child ends up dead. Does that make sense? It does because another question I had coming into this was were they supposed to do that, right?

[01:03:22] Like in this moment, we don't see Damon say, give me the next best kid. You know what I'm saying? They say, what do we do if we can't get to Aemond? And he's like, mm, you know, like cut away.

[01:03:36] So I'm thinking, did they just, do they go rogue? You know, or was this an instruction? We just didn't see him. So it does, like you said, it does kind of give them an out because I'm like, man, those idiots, blood and cheese,

[01:03:46] they went and got the wrong kid, man. Wait until Damon finds out, you know, he's going to be so mad, you know? Like that's kind of where my mind initially went. But also it's also one of those things where they don't have to say it

[01:03:57] for you to understand that that's probably what he led them to do. But I do think there is a little bit of ambiguity, right? Where you're not quite 100% sure that that's what he said. Cause I was like, well, maybe Damon wouldn't have this baby killed like that.

[01:04:10] No, he would, he definitely would. And so it happened, but I do think the show gave them an out, you know? He trying to save face with Team Black a little bit, I guess, don't know why. You didn't have to because Team Black,

[01:04:22] we were all ready for the war crimes. We were ready to stand behind the child murder, literally a son for a son, another child was murdered, murder that other child. You know what I'm saying? Especially cause we don't know that kid. Not like that. Exactly.

[01:04:37] Not like we knew Luke. Yeah, so that was a change. I was like, just like, I don't know. Like it softens the blow a little bit too much. You know? Exactly. That's what this whole thing feels like. It feels like it was softening this moment.

[01:04:57] It's like, don't soften it. We are Game of Thrones fandom. We are used to the horrendous shit. No, that's true. Even with the red wedding back in Game of Thrones, my thing about the wedding was of course, everybody, it's a memorable episode.

[01:05:14] Everybody talks about it from the books, but people who watch the show, we have the same feelings. They're like, oh my God, it was crazy. But it was like those moments that really like hit close to home were the ones that they just like,

[01:05:24] they zoomed in on things that you thought were unspeakable, right? Like, oh, we're going to kill this woman, but we're going to stab her in the stomach where the baby is. You know what I'm saying? We're going to watch Catelyn, watch her entire family murdered.

[01:05:34] And then she's going to like, you know, like that was kind of like the heaviness that they were putting on us. And it was a long scene where you really sat in it. With this, we get to see Helene, you know, running for her life essentially.

[01:05:47] No clue why they would just let her go either. You know, that really feels odd to me that they wouldn't just keep her. So it didn't feel like it to me. Well, in the book, they wanted to keep to that, a son for a son.

[01:05:59] Like it was still supposed to be some honor in the whole like- What? Yeah, like that. And that's like with the Damon calling it, it's like, they said, we're here for a son, no more, no less. That's what they say in the book.

[01:06:14] So there is supposed to be some sort of honor in it because once they take Jaharius' head, they leave the women, they leave everybody else. Like they said they would. I mean, honestly, Damon and them, they could have had them kill Aegon.

[01:06:29] They could have had them, you know, like actually kill somebody of importance, but they said no, a son for a son. Right, well, why wouldn't they have them kill Aegon? You know, with Aegon being on the throne and them wanting to take the throne,

[01:06:41] wouldn't that be the natural- Son for a son. It's petty, right? And it doesn't feel like it's like- Yeah, but it doesn't feel like it's rooted in anything but pettiness. You know, it's like, oh, the honorable thing is a son for a son.

[01:06:56] So what, so we done now? We even, even Stevens? You know what I'm saying? I mean, they set it up, remember an eye for an eye, but they never got, I mean, never got his eye. And you know what I'm saying? So are we good now?

[01:07:06] The war over, right? Y'all got y'alls, we got ours. We good. I don't wanna hear nothing else about the kids. Like, you know what I'm saying? A son for a son, make it sound like, okay. Well, you got your lick back. We good, right?

[01:07:17] I was like, I don't know how I feel about that. I just think that's very unrealistic. So I have to lean toward, it's just a petty, petty thing to do. Yeah, yeah. It's devastating. It's kind of like, I want you to feel how I feel.

[01:07:29] Right, I refuse to kill you because if I kill you, you can't mourn this. Yeah, exactly. But Helena, poor Helena, she's like, how did I get in it? I ain't even getting nothing. Yeah, and again, Helena was never always there to begin with, like in the show,

[01:07:43] in the books and stuff like that because she's a dragon dreamer. So she foresees, when she says the rat, she foresees all of this. She foresaw the beast being on the board. She foresaw the dance of the dragons, everything that, all of her dialogue that she said

[01:07:58] within these last, the first two seasons is from her seeing the future and seeing the conflict in the future and seeing this. And so she's always been so, she's always had one foot in the future and one foot in the present

[01:08:14] that she's never able to actually be where she's at. So her picking up J'er'ihra and running and just being in that fugue state, when they killed the boy, it's just like, that's her lot, unfortunately. And that's why I'm saying it doesn't make sense to me

[01:08:34] from a Helena character standpoint of her finding Alicent in bed with Cole because Helena doesn't care. Like she's not, she doesn't care. It would not phase her in a sense because she's, her mind is in different areas. Yeah, yeah. This is on rocker world

[01:08:54] because she's kind of been, like you said, a little off to the left of everybody anyway during all of this. And now she's been dragged into the middle of it. She had to select a child to kill. It probably hurts even more that she did pick the heir.

[01:09:09] You know what I'm saying? She didn't have to. She could have just been like, oh yeah, whatever. And hope that they picked the wrong child. But I guess, I don't think you can choose between your twins. So she just gave up. She's like, here you go.

[01:09:20] But I mean, that's gotta be so, that's devastating, right? A lot of people are losing their kids due to my kid did a thing to your kid, but her kids are not involved. And so this is nasty business. I personally, whatever Helena's gonna do,

[01:09:37] all of this moping and stuff that she does, I hope we don't spend too much time on it. I really need to get to the action more. I'm sorry. Yeah. Another thing here, they kind of set the tone for what will be known as the Dragon Seeds.

[01:09:55] Alan of Hull and we meet his brother, I'm assuming the other guy with the dreadlocks, Adam of Hull. They have a connection with Corliss Valerian. Again, I'm trying to like, how much spoilers do I wanna spoil? But they might be bastard like sons of Corliss

[01:10:19] or Lenor, depending on who you believe. In the book- Of Lenor? Yeah. In the book, they're like, they're proclaimed bastards of Lenor so that they can like inherit. But even in the book it's rumored, it's like, yeah, they're saying it's Lenor, but they're really Corliss people.

[01:10:45] Lenor had a long time to bring us a blonde headed kid and didn't give us one. So I'm gonna just have to assume that, Lenor, I just have to assume you weren't able to figure it out with Rhaenyra and your life was on the line.

[01:10:59] I'm gonna have to assume you wasn't out there figuring out with other people. You know what I'm saying? Like these might be Corliss' kids. And I liked that because there was definitely a moment where they're talking. He's like, yeah, I owe you my life.

[01:11:09] You pulled me out the water. And Alan kind of looked at him like, yeah. You know, like a pregnant pa, like he knew something or he was gonna say something and he just didn't say it. And so I was wondering what that was about. And that's the thing,

[01:11:22] like that's why I'm like, I don't know how much, like if I should spoil it because I'm not even sure from this episode if Corliss knows or not. You know what I'm saying? Like, it was very interesting to see what that's gonna be down the line.

[01:11:39] And Hugh, the blacksmith you were talking about. Yeah. He also, he's Hugh the Hammer. He will play a pivotal role in the Dance of Dragons as well. So seeing him introduced here was very interesting too. So they're kind of like just dropping little Easter eggs

[01:11:58] for the book readers. And finally, my last thing really is like in the books, Alison and Kristen Cole from our understanding are not having sex. At least that's my understanding. Maybe I need to go back and reread it again.

[01:12:15] But I never, they never said that they hooked up. It was always like, he was her zeal loyal knight, like a dog with a bone. Like he was- You betcha. Like the piety that would radiate off of them and their self-righteousness and of all of it.

[01:12:39] It's like, because they're overly religious people, they're zealot religious people. We've seen that in the first season where they replaced all of the Targaryen heraldry with signs of the seven. They were really like those, in the books, to me it felt like they were those type of people

[01:12:56] where they're just hypocritical in the sense of they're so zealous of their religion. And they look down on everybody else that they're able to commit crimes and still be like, but we're good because God got us. You know what I'm saying?

[01:13:13] Like the high sparrow or something like that, right? Yeah. It's just like, okay, yeah, I see. Yeah, but I'm assuming my only take here is I think the show wanted it to be openly like you can openly see they're hypocrites

[01:13:28] in a sense of like they turned on Rhaenyra because of all of that. And then they're over here doing the same thing. So I guess they just wanted to knock the subtlety out of it, I assume. But I don't know. Does it do anything for you

[01:13:43] knowing that they actually hook up and stuff? I mean, the alternative that they don't, I think is a little bit more boring. I do. I think that's kind of like, ah, you know, like, okay, we just don't like them because they super religious.

[01:13:53] Like we already did that in Game of Thrones, you know, all the religious people were like, you take these walks of atonement and we're gonna throw stuff at you. And then we're gonna humiliate you and then we're also gonna kill you.

[01:14:01] You know, like they were doing a lot of wild stuff in Game of Thrones behind religion. And so they could lean into that. But I think there's a little bit better. Cause even though I'm team green, I can imagine where you wanna see Alicent

[01:14:13] kind of wearing a lot more of, you know, the things that make you wanna be team black, right? The fact that she is so pious and just sitting up on her high horse and really she kind of been a hypocrite, prior to this whole sexual thing,

[01:14:27] she also was out here plotting, Eamon kind of calls it out like, oh yeah, my mama that was plotting on taking the throne with the high council. Like she wasn't at first, but when they brought her into it, she didn't shut it down.

[01:14:38] She wasn't like, no, we gotta stop this. My dad, my husband said, it's Rhaenyra. Like she did not. She was like, oh damn, I guess this is where we at. You know, so there were definitely moments where she's been a hypocrite,

[01:14:49] but I think this is a lot spicier, especially because as far as I'm concerned, it's a moral gray area. She ain't breaking no rules. Kristen Cole ain't breaking no rules. He already broke his rule. You can only break that rule once. You know what I'm saying?

[01:14:59] He can't get it back. So, that's all I'm saying. So I like this a little bit better. It's a little sexier, for lack of a better term. Yeah, I think the show itself, one of my main complaints has always been that they waffle with Alison's character

[01:15:15] because to me again, when I read her in the books, I think she's way more strong and forceful in a sense of, again, feeling she's more righteous and actually being more active in stealing the throne, you know, making moves during the dance and stuff like that.

[01:15:36] Like to me, she's way more ruthlessly portrayed in the book than she is in the show and not in a ruthless way like a Damon or Amond or even Rainier to an extent, just like cunning, I feel like they kind of give a lot

[01:15:53] of her character points to Otto. To Otto, right. Well, Mari, in this episode, they did have the moment where Otto and Alison were talking and she told him, you know, bro, you can't be undermining me in front of these kids. They not gonna respect me.

[01:16:05] Like, she's like, at least, at least, Agon can kind of, you know, he'll level with me in private, you know what I'm saying? But you putting me on blast in front of everybody, they're going to start to stop. They're going to stop respecting my words,

[01:16:17] you know, and I can't have that because somebody got to keep these kids under wraps. They're awful. And so she does have that conversation with them. So I'm wondering if there's a moment where the show is going to give us, you know,

[01:16:28] her getting from under his thumb so much to where she actually starts making her moves. It might make her be a more rutable character, I think as well. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So we'll see. We'll definitely see. I think that's it for my Maysters Corner. Yep.

[01:16:46] Leave a comment down below if there's anything else you think you want to hear more about. You want me to cover how you want this spoiler section to go. If you want more spoilers or less spoilers, we're open to it. Let us know. We are open to it.

[01:16:59] Yeah, leave a comment. Label your comments, spoiler or something like that for the people who just going to be in the comments being nice about it. You know, we don't want to ruin this for nobody else. But yeah, if you enjoyed Mari's Book Corner,

[01:17:09] there's much, much more to come because we're going to do this every episode. But then, you know, again, you can always send in your questions or your feedback to us directly at Recap Kickback on all social media platforms, or you can email us, recapkickback at gmail.com

[01:17:24] and tell us that you have a question about the book, about, you know, anything that Mari said about any of the spoilers. And we'll dedicate a section at the end of every podcast to Mayster Mari's Book Corner to talk about all of that stuff.

[01:17:34] So that has been the Book Corner. And that has also been our first episode of Hot V The Westroads Kickback. It's been a great time. Mari, this has been so much fun. I'm very excited to get into all of the future shenanigans with you as well.

[01:17:50] Without spoiling anything, we're looking for, we're looking at a bloodbath this season, right? Oh yeah, lots of blood. Lots of blood. It'll be very interesting to see where they end this season off at, but lots of battles coming up. Get ready. Get ready. We cannot wait.

[01:18:09] And in the meantime, Mari, tell everybody what you're working on, where they can find you until the next episode of Hot V The Westroads Kickback. You can find me over on the Crime Scene Podcast, Crime Scene True Crime Podcast, where me and Sarah Kerrodine,

[01:18:21] we watch true crime documentaries, docuseries, properties, and we let you know if we like them or not, and we give you a rating. So you can go to robhazawebsite.com slash crimefeed over there to subscribe. We're having a lot of fun. Just there's so much stuff dropping.

[01:18:40] We just did a double episode where we reviewed not only movie pass, movie crash, which was interesting, but we reviewed how to rob a bank. So it was a double. It was a two for one. So definitely go check us out. It was a lot of fun.

[01:18:59] You can follow me on Twitter at MariTalksTooMuch. That's like number two. That's where I'll be tweeting about Hot D and all this other reality TV stuff and WNBA basketball now all of a sudden because I'm a basketball girly, but go follow me on Twitter. How about you, Chappelle?

[01:19:15] What do you got going on? You know me. I'm out here trying to bring as much content as possible, as much good content to Recap Kickback. And so of course, if you are new here, subscribe to at Recap Kickback wherever you get your podcast. I'm sorry, Recap Kickback,

[01:19:29] wherever you get your podcast, I mean at Recap Kickback on YouTube. You can check out our more recent episodes. We recently talked about Act Your Age. Gia and I talked about that show on Netflix. It was in the top five of Netflix.

[01:19:42] It hasn't been renewed for season two. So we interviewed the showrunners and writers, showrunner Alison Foust and writer Miles Worden about season one and their ideas for what could be coming in season two if we get that show renewed. So make sure you check out that podcast,

[01:19:55] share it and tweet out how much you wanna see more of that show because we gotta support all of these black shows. If we don't support them, nobody will. Also, we recently covered Clipped, the scandalous story of LA's other basketball team. Yeah, that's right.

[01:20:11] The episodes one and two of Clipped with the Duo Sports and Stuff podcast. We did that recap to talk about the Clippers and the shenanigans over there. It is wild. It is like, it's absolute comedy. But yeah, there's that content and much, much more on Recap Kickback.

[01:20:27] We did Abbott Elementary coverage last season, Summer House Martha's Vineyard. We talked about the Black Twitter documentary. You name it, we're trying to bring it to you here on Recap Kickback. So keep up with the podcast, follow closely along and then follow at Recap Kickback

[01:20:41] on all social media platforms to keep up with all kinds of updates. But until next time for Mari, for myself, we are bringing you Dem Dragons, Dem Thrones, Dragons Y'all for the majority of the summer. And so tune in every week.

[01:20:56] And then of course, join the community here at Recap Kickback. Until next time, you ain't gotta go home but we'll see you around, Westeros. Get to stepping, peace. ♪ With it on life I wanna hold my breath ♪ ♪ I'ma get in my goddamn self. ♪