HOTD: The Westeros Kickback Season 3 Episode 3

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[00:00:49] Hey, what's up fam? Welcome back again to Recap Kickback presents HOTD, the Westeros Kickback. That's right. It's me, your host Chappell, and I'm back again to talk to you about another episode of House of the Dragon Season 3. And with me, the maester herself to talk about this very interesting time, this regime change in Westeros history. It's Mari Forth. Mari, welcome back.

[00:01:13] Yes, we're back. House of the Dragon is rolling. We've walked in and we're like, hey, what's going on? Where's all the gold? Where's all the... You know what I'm saying? So it's fun. I mean, it feels... It's only episode three, but it feels like... You know what I'm saying? Like a whole bunch has transpired in the three episodes. So this is crazy.

[00:01:38] Yes, and we have a lot to discuss. But first, I want to thank everybody for being here. All the new listeners who have found us because of House of the Dragon, welcome. We do this all the time. Mari is the dragon expert, the maester. She's read the books. And I am here as well. The peanut gallery just commenting on what I see on the TV. At the end of all the episodes, we have a maester Mari's book corner where she talks about some of the controversial things from the book. Maybe the deviations from the book and the main plot. But we kind of keep it very light on spoilers.

[00:02:08] We don't want anybody to lose their type of interest in the show because they've got spoiled by us. So we don't talk about any spoilers, anything that's pertinent or that we don't already know. That said, also, we have other coverage here. Interview with the Vampire coverage every week. The Vampire Lestat. Mari already watched this week's episode and I'm so ready to talk to you about it. So that's going to be fun. That podcast should be up tomorrow. Chantel Francis and I just started our live recaps of VH1's Rock of Love starring Bret Michaels.

[00:02:38] We are making our way through the Flavor of Love Cinematic Universe. And that is the next stop as we make our way to, you know, some other Of Love and VH1 shows. And Mari, we also have cups. Yes. Oh, we always have cups. Yes. Thank you to everyone who has supported my big cartel shop. I have pumped out so many Team Black cups. Just so many Team Black cups.

[00:03:05] I mean, it's like nobody has bought a Team Green cup. But I mean, I have a team green cup. Make no mistake. Somebody has one. Okay. So, yes. So, thank you. You can go to Mari Crafts Too Much. Wait. Yeah. Mari Crafts Too Much. Big Cartel.com to get your cups. I am actually holding this. I finally got this away from my husband. I actually made my husband a House Martel cup. Ooh.

[00:03:34] With the words on the side. Unbound, unbroken in their colors. This is a dual lava cup. So, I'm trying to bring on as many of the cups. Different ones. So, you guys can see the different ones. But it's been so fun. And so many listeners, like I said, have been buying. And if you're a listener and you mention that you're a recap kickback listener, you'll get a free gift as well. So, yeah. It's been so fun. Thank you, everybody, for the support. Truly, it means a lot to me.

[00:04:03] And it's been just so fun making them. I just, I'll post my TikTok, my book Tumblr's TikTok in there. Because I take pictures of, I try to remember to take pictures of all my cups. So, if you want to see all the cups that I did, like especially the House of the Dragon ones, they're on my TikTok. So, yeah. Yeah. And make sure you continue to join the conversation here on our YouTube page, youtube.com slash at recap kickback.

[00:04:32] A lot of great comments about the book, the deviations, but also the show. Please join the conversation. Make sure you like the video. Share it with your friends. Let them know that there is a podcast over here talking about House of the Dragon. And we got our own unique spin on it. We just do it the way that we know how. Last week, we had our special guest, Taryn Armstrong, come on, backup baster to this podcast. It was such a fun time. So, thank y'all for checking that out. But this week, we get to talk about Rhaenyra's first 100 days, if you will.

[00:05:01] Very bad. Yeah. Very bad. Her first days in general. And, Mariah, I know that these Teen Black Cups are flying off the shelves, but it's ghetto in here in Black land. I mean, God, the rats and the, oh my God. Y'all live like this? Well, I mean, that's how it goes. Once one monarch, one president, you know, moves out and the next one moves in, sometimes you got to fumigate the place.

[00:05:31] You got to spray some stuff because Rhaenyra walks into basically a disheveled kingdom. She's essentially been tricked because the treasury is gone. If you remember, you probably don't because it's been four years. But I do believe it was back in season one. I want to say it was season, it had to be season one because it was Otto and Tylan Lannister.

[00:05:59] They talked about immediately, they're saying we got to split up the treasury. They immediately moved the treasure out of King's Landing. And, I mean, can I tell it, should I tell it now or just wait to the book corner for where? Just wait, just wait for the book corner for that one. Because I think that's a deeper conversation. Because the point is, the money is gone. Rhaenyra has, she got this kingdom, but she can't do any of her plans without any coin.

[00:06:28] And they made sure to get rid of the coin very early on. Exactly. Yes, exactly. So Otto did a great job of foreseeing, just in case King's Landing were to fall, that basically it wouldn't be a welcome, peaceful transition, if you will. It's almost like people are storming. Oh, no, anyways.

[00:06:51] So Rhaenyra, this was such an interesting episode because we're seeing what it's like to actually govern again. It, again, has taken us back to season one where it's like actual governance. And, you know, the line in Hamilton, which is escaping me right now because I am not in my usual setup and it is very late at night. But basically, like, you know, dying is easier than ruling, you know?

[00:07:21] Yeah. And that's what Rhaenyra is learning right now. Yeah. Dying is easy, young man. Living is hard. And so, yeah. And so, yeah, she's got a rule. She wanted this. She had, you know, the idea that this was for me. The gods have deemed this for me. And so now I need it. And now that I have it, cool. Bet. I'm the president. Let's do president stuff. First off, let's have a party. We got to do my coronation. We got to bring in the stuff.

[00:07:49] They were like, hey, we don't have any money for any coronation. Like, Rhaenyra and Loki trying to make a ballroom in the White House and people are dying, Kim. Okay. It's almost like she can't, you know, she inherited a crumbling economy. Not inherited. She wanted it. Bad. Very sleepy. She comes in very sleepy and has to clean up after the former regime. Uh-huh.

[00:08:18] So much so that her regime is being blamed for the former regime's horribleness. You know? Yeah. It's very much paralleling a certain time. But. Yeah. But yeah, it's like she, it's nothing like she imagined. Right? Because if you really stop and think about it, you can style yourself the queen in Dragonstone all you want to.

[00:08:48] It's, you know, it's been roughly a year or so depending on what this timeline is. But once you land in King's Landing, once you declare yourself queen, once you start making decisions, it's totally different. And then when you find out that you're at a deficit, both monetarily and otherwise, it's hard. You know what I'm saying? And she's realizing this.

[00:09:15] And I kind of feel like I take umbrage also that they had to make sure that we knew that she was like on her period. And I was like, am I being too sensitive about that, Chappelle? Like, what was that? I don't think that's my place to say. I don't think it's for me to be like, are you being sensitive about, you know, something that people with vaginas deal with? That's not really on me to speak on. Because it felt like, oh, look at this woman. She can't rule because her uterus is bleeding.

[00:09:45] I mean, to me, I read it as, Rhaenyra's having the worst day ever. And I was like, and you can speak to this, but, you know, you're having a bad day. Everything's going wrong. You lost some money. Maybe people at your job get on your nerves. Your kids are annoying. You got to deal with people you don't like. You hit your knee on something and it stings. And then Aunt Flo shows up. And you're just like, damn, damn, damn. It better.

[00:10:15] Because I was like, what do you mean by that? What do you mean by that? So you're saying that. So what you're saying? Yeah, what you're trying to say? Women can't rule countries while they're bleeding. It's not like all these non-emotional men aren't making stupid decisions. Yeah. I mean, we've heard commentary about that in our real actual world about how people feel when they come to voting for leaders that are women. And they will often, you know, lean on like women are emotional. And then like also periods, you know.

[00:10:44] So but I think I think that it would be realistic. It's probably just not something that she really considered when in a lot of these things are not probably when she thought about ruling is that she I think Rhaenyra is. Hey, I came here to be the queen. I see myself sitting on the throne. I'm wearing the crown. I'm telling people what to do. I got my uncle husband next to me as my like ride or die like knight in shopping armor. Right. See, let's see. Let's track that. But I think that's what she thought of.

[00:11:11] What she did not think of is the paperwork and the meetings and, you know, the people begging. And like you said, the transfer of power. What does it look like when you have to take over? She wants to do her coronation. And it's not you know, I'm not judging her for wanting to throw her a big coronation party because that's what you do to legitimize yourself. You're supposed to do these things. And by not doing it, it makes you look less legitimate. So you're like, well, obviously, I need to do that first and foremost, because, you know, I need to be anointed.

[00:11:35] And so one of the things that she needs to do is go over and talk to the church folks, because, you know, the acceptance, they got to they got to, you know, the gods ordained this. So they got to go ahead and show me some love. I might not be able to have my party because the coin is gone. Jasper is dead. And I can't even ask him about it because, you know, my husband chopped his head off. But at least I could get the religious folks on my side. Mari, they are not on her side. Yeah. Yeah. Immediately, the high acceptance was like, well, but what about the other kids?

[00:12:05] I need to see proof that he's dead. Yeah, who did the body? Yeah. Yeah. Very that. Exactly. And yeah. Again, just seeing that, like you said, the stumbling blocks that Rhaenyra is encountering and then how she's going to choose to deal with them. When he says you do not want to make an enemy of the faith, that's very true.

[00:12:33] Plenty of Targaryens before her and a few after her will make that mistake. And, you know, the common folk mostly rely on their religion. So, if their religion tells them to take up arms against their monarchs, more than likely that's what they're going to do. So, it's like you really do not want to cross the faith.

[00:13:02] And it'll be very interesting to see how she handles that because she's like, man, I said he did. Like, you're feeling so. Yeah. And even this, I mean, she's going to him saying like, all right, he's gone. I'm next up. I'll sit on the throne. Anoint me. And this substance kind of like, I mean, if I ain't seen a body, is he really dead? And we all know in the Game of Thrones universe that that's actually something you should probably pay attention to. And so, if you haven't seen a body, they might come rolling in on a horse like Bingen Stark.

[00:13:31] And so, yeah, it happens. And so, he's definitely like being like, I can't anoint another person like this. He's like, this is bigger than your grab for power and these dragons and all that kind of stuff. They ain't got nothing to do with the gods. Okay. Once the gods have spoken, the gods have spoken. And the gods spoke and said Agon was in. Now, we got to reconcile that. We need the, what do you say? We need them sisters to come in. They got to do the body. Yeah. We got a whole situation.

[00:13:58] He don't even really know for a fact that Rhaenyra is lying. But it does look suspicious to him nonetheless, where it's like, hey, don't drag the church into your power struggle. And this just reminded me why Cersei is blowing up churches. Because she's like, I got to make power moves and y'all in the way. Whether they be religious fanatics, heretics, or just the church that they want on their side. There's no way. And I think the Hightowers are famously the religious people, right?

[00:14:24] Like, their whole thing is that they were like, for the church and all that kind of stuff. Very quiet. Yeah. Because they're going to jump ship on them. Old town is the seat of the citadel and all that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So now they're going to jump ship on them immediately without any type of, like, proof. Exactly. The Hightseptain, I do believe, was like a close friend of Otto. And the Hightseptain doesn't have, if I remember correctly, it's the Pope, basically.

[00:14:54] But it's not that same type of appointment. Like, some Hightseptains are appointed by church members. Some are literally, like, the king says, here, you're the Hightseptain now. So it just depends. But it's basically, like, if you're a nurse or a CLS, it's like, this isn't about to go on my license. Like, I'm not about to. I'm not going to be the one. Because when they're out of here, they're not coming to me. Yeah. A lot of CYA, basically, is what he's doing. Yeah. Mari, imagine that.

[00:15:23] A religious figure getting in a beef with the Pope. I mean, a political figure getting in a beef with the Pope. Yeah. What does that look like? Who would have thought? Who would have thought? There are so many parallels here. So many parallels. So many parallels. I just want to say. Oh, go ahead. But I know. This is different than the Pope and everything. And I don't know where you're going. But I have to get this out before I forget it.

[00:15:47] Like, Rhaemira is essentially trying to pick what type of monarch she is going to be. And I think it's very telling that Saria says, what would your father do? Yeah. And she's being pulled between trying to be like Viserys, who kept the peace, but was overly cautious.

[00:16:12] And then versus Damon, who has always wanted the crown and the power, but he's never wanted the responsibility. Like, Damon is like, let's go fly off. Let's be gods. Let's take our dragons and go kill more people. And they're like, the war is won. But instead of ruling, he wants to go and conquer more. It's like, you can't conquer more if you can't even govern what you have, like Rhaenir says. Yeah.

[00:16:39] I'm glad you brought that up because when it comes to these situations where she's up against, you know, she's got Mysterio on one side and Damon on the other side, Damon is talking about, you know, why don't we just go conquer a bunch of stuff? Like, we got all the dragons. Why not? And Mysterio is kind of looking out for the small folk in a way. But she's doing, she's using what Rhaenyra wants to hear, needs to hear, right? Like, do what your father would do is like, oh, Rhaenyra's, you know, vision of the way her dad was.

[00:17:08] It's like, oh yeah, that's the right move. What my dad would do, right? So she knows how to speak to her. There are definitely moments where Damon's kind of like, girl, who invited you into this conversation in the first place? Yeah, every moment. Right. But Mysterio is not going anywhere. And so you can tell that she has a lot of sway and a lot of pull. And I think Rhaenyra's just looking for some counsel. She's looking for some help because she does have to fire her small counsel.

[00:17:36] They, she said, look, I didn't see them turn their back on us, but I didn't see them standing up for us either. So they got to go, can't trust them. And I was like, you're not wrong. When you bring in a new regime, it's commonplace to clean house. Yeah. But also those, those lords of those small counsel, like a lot of them lost their holdings. That's why they couldn't do anything. Cause remember the battle before the battles of rooks, rooks rest. So Kurt, sir, Christian Cole was going and taking those small lords. Cause they're, they were all small lords.

[00:18:06] He was taking and sacking their, their cities. So they're sitting on Dragonstone counseling her and their holdings are being burned. And remember that was at a point where she wasn't letting anybody go out and help them. So yeah, like I get that there's a regime change, but again, you can't just keep going and dismissing and treating people who work for you. Like, like so badly, you know? Yeah.

[00:18:34] She's up against a rock and a hard place in a lot of these situations, right? Cause she does need to, you know, get people in that she trusts, but also what do you do with the people that you don't trust? And, you know, can you trust them and how much of this is actually your doing? You know, we'll see with her talks about the blockade. She, uh, the people are hungry. The people were starving and you know, the noblemen, the people, you know, with the money, the wealthy, they've been hoarding resources. Cause they're like the poor folks just going to tear each other apart, trying to get stuff. So they've been hoarding resources. Uh, Ray Nira is like, well, I gotta feed them.

[00:19:03] You know, they're coming to me. They're asking for, they're asking for money. I ain't got none. So the least I can do is get some food in and I got to take it from the rich. We got to eat the rich. I said, I like this campaign promise, but she's not going to. Yay. Socialism. We did it. Um, it does work a little bit. Kind of right. Uh, maybe. But the wildest part about it though, is that like, yeah, it is take from the rich, but it's

[00:19:31] also like, let's dive into why these people are poor in the first place. Why are they starving? The blockade you got, like, we have to take responsibility for all of it. If not for the blockade, food and stuff would have been able to get out in and out. Obviously you were at war, but these are now the people that you need to be your subjects. And so it's kind of like you were at war with them and now you need them to, to give you fealty and you need them to worship you as a God and all this other stuff. But they're not going to forget that they were hungry. And so, um, she actively goes out and kind of makes a fool of the noble people by feeding

[00:20:01] them these rats that are running rampant, uh, on the, um, like in the Queens landing. And, um, I thought the scene was pretty cool because those people were very, they were ready to start licking boots, right? Like, oh yeah, we never switched up. Oh my God. Like, let's eat, let's feast. They had no type of guilt about all the stuff they were hoarding, the food they were about to eat. And I'm glad they had to look at those damn rats on their plates. I knew it. As soon as that stuff came in, I was like, it's going to be rad saying it. And I was like, yep, yep, exactly.

[00:20:31] And, and like you said, he was like, oh yeah, I was always team black. I was like, that was hilarious. And I was like me, stupid me. I was like, okay, she's going to sit here and ask them nicely to give up some food. She's like, nah, she's like, this is what the small folks have been eating. I was like, okay, you made your point. Like, cool. Right. And then she's like, I've been sent, I've sent people into your house to take your stuff right this very second. I was like, oh, oh, that's not right.

[00:21:01] Oh, you play a hard ball. Right. This is crazy. And immediately we get pushback. I can't think of this man's name. It was, they didn't really. Oh, oh, oh, Torrin, Torrin. Yeah. He's the one who calls her out on it the most, you know, he's got a grinning because he's like, dang, this how you moving, you know? And she's like, well, I mean, y'all rich, you owe, you owe just like everybody else. You're going to pay what you owe. He's like, that's fine. But people are not going to forget how we got here.

[00:21:29] And so that's definitely something she needs to manage. Now, she does know that although she can't be anointed by the faith, there's really the people that she needs to pander to or to cater to. And so she goes out and she passes out these rations to people. It's like she's throwing out rolls of, you know, toilet paper and paper towels. I think you have her confused. Like she was, you know, she was passing out vaccines.

[00:22:05] She's making a big show of, you know, giving the small folk the feel from the noble houses. And like her and Damon said, this will help for a few weeks, but they need to figure something out. So, yeah, and it doesn't even really like Philly feel like Damon wants to figure something out as far as like making these diplomatic moves. You know, right near is like, OK, here's what we're going to do.

[00:22:34] We're going to we'll go get, you know, Joffrey from the veil because I need to restart, you know, grooming my new heir. But then at the same time, let's hit these houses that are that have sworn filthy to us. They need to make a donation to the cause. All right. We got to build the bank back up. Let's do it. And Damon's kind of like, I mean, we could do that or we could take all six of our dragons and just start laying siege to places. Like, why did we get six dragons if we weren't going to just go roll on people and take all their money?

[00:23:02] And she's not she does not look like she's a big fan of this. But Damon doesn't look like he's a big fan of her not being a big fan of this. He's kind of like, you still think you you still don't think fat meat is greasy. And that's your problem. Like we are we are gods amongst these people. We're going to take what we got. He looked at her like, oh, so you just going to sit here and play PlayStation all day? Yeah. You summertime. My car. Right. And do nothing while I like, sir.

[00:23:30] Like it was like he was looking at her like, are you lacking ambition? Like, yeah. Yeah. Because if you think back to it, when they when they got married, then they they did the whole big plot to get rid of Laenor. Um, it was because of the ambition that brought them together. You know what I'm saying? That that was what they were initially drawn to and and being God on Earth.

[00:23:57] And I think it's I think it's very unfair for him to be like asking her about this now. It's like, do you not see like what is happening? We have to pick up the ground of this week. We cannot go flying off. Yeah. But he but it's Damon. Damon's always been like this. They've been talking about how Damon's like this in season one. That's why Damon went in and started a whole war in the Stepstones, because Damon will never be satisfied, even if he is king.

[00:24:26] Even if he is king consort, he will never be satisfied. Never. He'll never sit there and rule. He wants to go and make a name. He wants to impose his will. And that's where they're going to have problems. Right. And that's that's exactly why he was, you know, thinking that it should have been him. Right. He has so many big ideas for what they can do with all this power, with these dragons, with their Targaryen. So they're full of their own stuff. Right. They like they believe they're supposed to be in charge.

[00:24:55] The gods, the gods brought these dragons to us. OK, so we got to go use them. She's like, yeah, but what about right now? He's like, I don't care about right now. Let's go get if we go to Dorne right now. With these dragons, we'll be back in a fortnight and we could tell everybody. All right. Now we got some money. She's like, that's not how I want to get down. And he's kind of like thinking, all right, but the way you get down is not the way I thought we was going to get down. Mari, do you foresee some type of clashing between the two of them now that, you know, she is clearly clearly the queen and he has given her his loyalty, but it doesn't look

[00:25:24] like he agrees with the way she plans on ruling. You know, it's just that they're going to do what they always do, right? They're going to fight. They're going to go and get some space from each other, do their own things and come back. That's literally their whole lives, their whole relationship. And that's exactly what it's going to be. She really just needs a good, solid advisor, but she can't find one.

[00:25:52] There's that one scene where she's got Damon and Massaria that are arguing against each other. She goes, Corliss, you got something? Nope. I defer to you, queen. It's like, hey, why did I bring y'all in? So the only person that she can find to talk to that could relate to the heaviness of this crown is her former best friend and Queen Dowager herself, Alicent. And she kind of brings her in on some, hey, you were basically running the kingdom when my dad was sick.

[00:26:21] Like, is this how it always is? And she's like, yeah, this is it. This is whatever you thought you were going to be, whatever person you thought you were going to be. It's impossible to do that and rule effectively. I mean, if you look at Viserys, we talked so much trash about Viserys in season one because he was not good. He was so busy trying to please everybody that he was just falling apart while doing it. He was pleasing nobody. That's how all this plotting started, right? Viserys would not name an heir. He was dragging people along. He was telling people what they wanted to hear.

[00:26:51] All this started because Viserys was bad at his job. And because of that, we have been on a trajectory to this moment. But now, Rhaenyra is looking around like, damn, but I don't want to be this strong-hand ruler who just demands obedience or I'm just going to burn everybody alive. Even though some of her urges are like, maybe I should just burn these people alive. And so it's Alicent who's telling her, some of that stuff you got to let go. You know, when you are in this position, there are going to be hard decisions that you have

[00:27:20] to make and people are going to die. People are going to suffer and it's going to be at your hands. But you have to do what's best for the realm and for your kingdom and all that kind of stuff. And so she's struggling with that. She's like, my daddy wouldn't have changed up. And I love Alicent being like, you don't even know what your daddy would have done because he was living in a fantasy world. Yeah. He was, he was, he thought he knew what was going on or he, he liked the facade of what he knew was going on.

[00:27:49] But we all know that that was just, it wasn't real. And this is where I will give Queen Alicent her sevens. Like she did learn, learn how to rule the kingdom that, that one time when she was. Sorry. That's just me sipping out of my team green cup, Mari. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Well, I mean, she, she sat there on that throne and listened to those petitions day in and day out as she, as they broke her down. And what does she get for it?

[00:28:19] Unceremoniously scooted aside once, once Viserys was dead and they crowned her son, the king. Like, so even that it's like, you know, what was it all for? And, and with her being an effective ruler during those, those years or whatever, again, she never, she never got the credit for it. So it's just one of those things that I thought that, yeah, right. This was, this was actually very smart.

[00:28:48] Like it, just like, uh, uh, Alicent said to Aegon when he at first took, took throne. It's like, if you are not, you're not a wise man, you listen to wise men. You listen to wise counsel and Rhaenyra swallowing her pride and coming to Alicent is actually a good, uh, indicator of a rule of somebody who wants to be a good ruler. You know what I'm saying? So I did enjoy this scene between the two of them here.

[00:29:18] Like there, I enjoyed every scene that they had in this episode. Uh, poor queen Helena. She's like, Oh yeah. Helena's the best. She, she's the best character now. Right. Like as of today, her stock has risen so high for me because when Rhaenyra is charging up Alison, she's like, why do we ain't got no money? Where's my money at? I was like, I, you think I am in control of what's been going on? She said, these people ain't supporting me since day one. They've been, they've been doing all that plotting and scheming behind my back. I walked in and was shocked, shocked. And so,

[00:29:48] uh, Rhaenyra kind of like, uh, whatever. Yeah, exactly. Damn it. Uh, but Rhaenyra walks in and she's like, okay, but like what, where my money though? What are we going to do? Hey, I, I'm not sure you keep killing the people who would have the answers for you. I really don't know. Then there's that one moment where Helena is like, yeah, by the way, did it make you feel better when you kill Otto? Was that like, that kind of healed that Jace wound. And Helena is asking with all sincerity. She's not being like,

[00:30:18] now what, you know, look at you with your clown nose on. She kind of like, so tell me, how did that work out? I almost, I was almost like, is she asking? Is she being shady? No, I almost thought it was like, was she really debating to like, maybe kill like Rhaenyra or somebody else for her own? right. Cause like, I have some grief. So if I kill you, is that going to work? Yeah. Yeah. That was a great question. Uh, did, did that heal your wound? Uh, we will find out. No, the,

[00:30:45] the ghosts of the past are still haunting Rhaenyra and they should be right. This just happened. She can't even walk down the hall without seeing, you know, Jace, um, you know, and thinking about Jace. And when she hears Alison saying things like, dang, you want me to pray on my sons downfall? She's like, at least you got that luxury. Cause some of us ain't got no sons. She still has three more, but yeah, I still understand. Yeah. Um, yeah.

[00:31:16] And the, her and Alison, can we, can we talk about, should we talk about the end? No, not yet. No, let's say that. Let's say that. We're going to get to that. But Alison and Helena are essentially prisoners. Okay. They are being kept, uh, because you know, I mean, you can't just let them go. Um, right now we know Agon's at large. We don't want them all linking back up. Uh, it's Alison idea to say, Hey, like tell everybody Agon's dead. And then when he shows back up, just be like, we don't know who that person is. That's not a guy. He doesn't look like that. His face wasn't burnt like that.

[00:31:46] He didn't have scars. Um, now, uh, Rhaenyra says, so you still trying to save your son's life after all of this. And I thought that this was interesting because I think Rhaenyra should be, she shows, she should still be concerned about Alison, right? Like they've, they've gone through way too much over the last few years for this to be something or you could just fully trust her. But Alison did hold up her end of the bargain, right? She said, I told you, I would get the guards to let their guns down. I've done all I could do,

[00:32:14] but I do think it's still wise of her to be like, I think you're still trying to save your son. You know, the son for a son thing is not something that Rhaenyra is going to let go. She's like, Hey, I, I still owe a God one and low key. Oh, I owe Damon one too. And with those two people around, she is going to have contenders for the throne. So she does still need to kill them. And, uh, it is Damon who will keep reminding her, you need to kill these people. They got to die. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I mean, but,

[00:32:42] but I do think it's kind of hypocritical because she's like, Oh, you're still trying to save your son. It's like, Rayner, that's what you would do too. But then again, I do also realize what she's saying because Alison gave her son up, you know what I'm saying? And so, um, it's like, you were the one who gave him up, said you were going to trade. And now he's not here. How do I, how do I trust you? So, like you said, so this is what happens when the family feuds. It's like,

[00:33:11] like blood in, blood out, blood to blood, back and forth. You see it with gang wars all the time. It's like, so you're revenging for this. And then you're revenging for this. And then this leads to this revenging. It's just like, what, where is this like, where does it end? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, where does it end? And unfortunately, Rhaenyra has made some more campaign promises that she has to live up to. Um, because, uh, her hand Corliss, he has some demands as well. He's like, listen, we have fought beside you.

[00:33:40] I've lost all of my, my themes, my worldly possessions. And all I have now is my two bastard sons, Alan and Adam. He says, Hey, you might not, you might've guessed this already, but these are, these are my kids. Rhaenyra's like, what? Yeah. I mean, I kind of see it in the nose. Y'all can, but, but she's like, but yeah, that's cool. Love bastards. You know, I'm kind of pro bastard myself, you know? And he's like, good, because I need you to, um,

[00:34:10] I need you to make sure that they are like verifiably my heirs. You need to speak legitimacy into them and just be like, Hey, Hey, they're Valerians. Now we're all family. Yay. And she hesitates. Mara, there's this sound drop that happens throughout this episode. It kind of reminds me of the law and order, like boom, boom. Cause every time something happens, you hear the doom. And it's kind of like the room starts spinning a little bit. But at first I didn't really, yeah, I didn't realize why she was so, uh,

[00:34:40] against this, but I mean, she eventually makes her case. I, I mean, I guess like, I was just like, why, like, why are you so reluctant? Like, like he said, like, I've given up every single thing for you. The least you could do is just be like, ah, they're the Valerians. Like you, like you haven't, like they do that all the time. And for her to be like, oh, well, you know, I can't just be proclaiming baffled and all this stuff. Girl, you just pissed off some noble people.

[00:35:10] Right. She said, well, they're all minor, they're merchants and minor nobles. They're not the great houses, but like, like it was very, again, people are dying for you. They're giving up their blood, their sweat, and their tears. And they ask you for just something in, in return, that's tangible.

[00:35:36] And even the hesitation is just absurd to me. You know what I'm saying? Like, I, I do, I, I, I felt so bad for Corliss here. Like that man has nothing. Nothing. Give me his sons. Give me, give me his sons his name. That's it. That's all he wants to do. But, uh, she's not able to say the words. Later on, she will have to knight one of these sons. Um, she would like all of these bastards. She goes to off and says, all right, like, what are you going by? He's like,

[00:36:06] off the Targaryen. She said, no, Oh, the hell you are. Uh, she shut that down. Um, we get Hugh the hammer off the white and then Alan of whole. And I thought, damn, you go. Adam of whole, Adam, Adam of whole. You, you go. You're going to solidify this man's name as bastard. When his daddy just told you last night that he wanted like, like the next day. She like, all right,

[00:36:35] let me go ahead and name you something else. Other than the one request I got from my trusted hand who just went to war for me in the gullet. Um, and it's the most lackluster as dunk and egg nighting that I've ever seen in my life. Oh my God. All right. Y'all. Um, yeah. Y'all all nights look around. It's the people taking down the drapes and stuff or the witnesses. This was ghetto ghetto. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:05] And again, Ulf is like the white, I guess. Like, it's like, sir, you got dragons. And, and, um, when Hugh comes in, he's like, well, how am I supposed to live? And she's like, we'll get you. We'll set you up. We got, we got you. Just give me a couple of weeks. I need to, I don't know where you're going to sleep tonight, but once I get my Queens guard and a small council and some money,

[00:37:34] and once I find a gun and a man, like, then I got you. Honestly, look at the disarray. Hugh, go, just go grab a room, man. Just go grab a room. You got a dragon to start conquering. I mean, there's so many rooms there in the red keep. As long as you're not in right nearest, I think you should be fine. Yeah.

[00:38:04] This is tough. Like she has sworn so much to people like to build up this, you know, this army, you know, these people who are loyal to her, she's gone to them and she's promised them Lordships and houses and, you know, just rooms at the very least. I'll take care of you and your wife. She's not delivering on any of this. And Corliss is pissed. Is looking very much like, was it Corliss's brother? That was like, all your kids bastards. What you going to do about it? Oh, he kind of did the same thing.

[00:38:34] He said, your son, the serious bastard. I made him. I made him my air to Driftmark. That's a, Jace. I was like, Corliss, but you're right. Why did you say that really loud? But you're right. Lived and died a bastard. He said he was a bastard when he was alive. He's a bastard. Now I was, whoo, Corliss. And, and, and again, and that's what Corliss said. Corliss said to Rainey's. and again, in season one,

[00:39:03] when he was like, the blood doesn't matter. Like the blood doesn't matter. It's just the name. It's just the names. And that's all Corliss wants. He wants his name for his kids. And the hypocrisy of Rhaenyra, like, like he said, what, why do, why did your bastards deserve a name in my, you know? I was like, you know, I mean, rightfully so. It's because she is the heir and they did come from her body, but that's neither here nor there. He's right. It's,

[00:39:33] it's very rude. And again, girl, what is you doing? You don't, your allies are few and far between and pissing off. The one that's given up arguably the most for you. Not even arguably like somebody did a, a tick tock. Like I think we talked about last week. Corliss lost his wife, his, his, uh, he lost everybody. Everybody. You know what I'm saying? Like, all he got is the bastards. And,

[00:40:02] give that man the name. Yeah. Just give that man the name, man. So this was, I was just like, Oh, there were a few wrong steps here in her first, uh, first day or two. Yeah, for sure. Shit. Should right near it. Should she kill Corliss? Add them to the list. I mean, like there's too many people for her to kill because, because she keeps screwing them over or they're not giving her perfect loyalty.

[00:40:31] Like you cannot do that. You need friends. You need friends. And you not just like Damon is all about like having people fear you. And, and, but, but I don't think people to me, fear and risk. Fear. Doesn't last as long as like respect and admiration. You know what I'm saying? Like, if you want to lock somebody down for a longer period of time and not just

[00:41:01] until what you can do for them runs out, you have to inspire respect and admiration. Inspiring fear doesn't help if they eventually can get over said fear. You know what I'm saying? So, uh, it's just like, girl, you just, look, your to-do list longer and longer. Yeah. This was a tough, a tough look because I, I get her. She doesn't want to start her reign by being like, all right, bring in more bastards.

[00:41:30] Like we just look respectfully Luke and Jace. They did, you know, we, and what's they, they daddy dead too. Um, so, you know, we can kind of let that rest in the history books can say they were never bastards. We can move on from that, but like she doesn't, so she don't want to be like the bastard queen no more, you know? And so she's, I can see why she doesn't want to, but you're right. You cannot piss off Corliss right now. You don't have a lot of people in your corner. Damon and Maseria are fighting. Um,

[00:41:57] and he's like the one solid thing that you can count on right now. Right? Like, you know, his kids are riding for you and, and don't forget, uh, like the men that he didn't lose at the battle of the gullet are make up most of her forces because again, in the books, her, her, her shield is quartered. Her shield has, I don't have, and of course I don't have that cup with me, but her shield is the, the Targaryen red dragon on black and Corliss's, uh, uh,

[00:42:27] seahorse and lady, lady Jane, Aaron's, um, what was it? Vale. Falcon. It's the Falcon in the moon. Like, because those are the, those are the forces that make up her main host and they were the most loyal and they were the first ones. So again, pissing off Corliss. Makes no sense. Summer routines live or die by how easy they are. And honestly, if something takes too much effort, I'm out.

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[00:43:25] So we got to talk about the big plot here in this episode, because I have been waiting, waiting to meet this character for a while. We've talked about this character as like one of a missing piece. And so we finally see Damon roll up on Ormond to talk about Dayron. Okay. So with them curls, look at them luscious curls. Look at them. The, like the batty wig. I see you, Matt Smith. Um, so, um, so Damon show,

[00:43:55] Damon shows up and he's like, Hey, Ormond, I listen, I got all these dragons. I mean, literally showed up with three dragons behind them. Y'all can't do nothing about this. We've taken over. And Ormond is very, very understanding. He, he definitely pries and ask a few questions. So how are we supposed to trust this? What are we supposed to do? Like, you think I'm just going to bend the knee and leave all these people hanging? Again, he's kind of like, well, I mean, you see what your alternative is. You can fight back, but we got these dragons. He says, you know what? Okay, fine. Let's bend the knee. He bends the knee.

[00:44:25] He pledges his fealty and he tells his army that it's time to go. This would be the last of the high tower army. They are going to admit that they've lost and they're going to move on. But Damon also demands that they turn over the ward. Dayron who is, or Darren, if you, you know, depending on who you are. Um, because he is Alison's other child. And that person also has a claim to the throne and we can't have him wandering around with the dragon and all that good stuff.

[00:44:54] So he's got to come with us. And so they give up this small blonde child with a similar hair, uh, just looking like baby Damon, baby, uh, Aemond. And, um, my first thought was damn, Mari never told me Dayron was a child. I didn't, I, I'm like, uh, I'm like right there in this moment. I said, I kind of expect him to be older. Yeah, exactly. And that was my thoughts too. I was like, why is he looked 10? I was like, I was like right there. Stop asking him all these questions. He's clearly 10.

[00:45:24] And then I was like, wait, why is he 10? Like it is well known and well recorded that him and Jace were born at the same time. They were, they were milk brothers. So, so he's at the very least 16, depending on who you ask, but like it, 16 was, is Jace's recorded age. I believe some people say 19, but like, well, I was, I was, I was like, huh?

[00:45:54] Okay. You know, because you don't second guess it because they've been playing fast and loose with the ages. Like I said for forever. So I was just like, all right. Yeah. He, he does not have the answers to any of her questions because he is a child. And so she's like, tell me what the hostages are. Tell me what they're about to do. Tell me about the military strategy. He freezes up. He doesn't say anything. He doesn't say anything. Go to your quarters. I'll figure you out later. She tries to pry some information out of him, but he's a vault.

[00:46:23] This kid is just not talking. Just seems very scared. So eventually she goes to Alison and says, all right, just so you know, I have your son. It's been here a couple of days. I do need to kill him, but I'm not going to do that because I'm merciful. And I've been campaigning on mercy this whole time. So here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to send him to the wall. It's going to take the black and we'll never hear from him again, but at least it won't be dead. And Alison's like, damn, that's crazy. Well, okay. I guess I have to do that,

[00:46:52] but can I see him real quick? And if Rhaenyra did not do this, Mari, if Rhaenyra was not merciful enough to let Alison see her child, I don't even know if we ever, if she ever finds out that this is, this isn't day run. This isn't Darren. This is, this is an actor. That was honestly so good because, I'm going to just say it here. Now I was like, what?

[00:47:22] Rhaenyra captures day run. That don't make sense. Where'd that head? Who wrote that part? Who wrote that part? And I was just like, and again, I was just like, well, Oh yeah. Just like, something to say for the book corner. Right. Yeah, exactly. And then, and then when Alison was like, she felt like, she didn't want to say it. She was like, but look at the look on her face, Mari.

[00:47:52] I got that screenshot directly from that scene. She cannot hide her facial expression. She like, damn, who is this kid? I don't know. And it was very smart for the kid not to speak because, you know, once the kid speaks, they should easily be able to tell like, you know, the different dialects, like a noble dialect versus a, like a common born dialect. So that's probably was a factor there as well. Once, once Rainier was like, wait, are you not dead around?

[00:48:21] And he starts talking, you know? Uh-huh. Yeah. He admits that Ormond bleached his hair and basically threatened him. Said like, Hey, if you speak, if you reveal who you are, we will have your mother killed. And your mama ain't did nothing to deserve this. This is just your duty as a part of, I guess the army of the Lord or whatever they are to where you got to do this. And he, so the kid obliges, he doesn't want his mom to die.

[00:48:48] But Rainier is again between a rock and a hard place because I know she want to just start slapping people, but the people in the room have not done anything to her, you know? Um, so she can't take it out on this little boy, but somebody's got to pay. Damn it. She's like looking around like, what can I do? Uh, we also find out that, um, the high towers in that moment, you know, by using this decoy, they have made a move on, is it Tumbleton? Yeah. Tumbleton. Uh, and if you recall,

[00:49:19] um, uh, Sir Hugh, that's where his wife, his wife. Yeah. She, remember she had, she said we should go to Tumbleton in the, in the first season of the second season. And, um, so she went to Tumbleton, with her brother to see her brother. Cause there was nothing here. And Tumbleton is where the high tower host is currently attacking. Cause that was another thing. I was like, again, I was like, they just gave up. Why are they just giving up quickly? Um, so yeah,

[00:49:48] all this was a ruse so that the, um, so that, uh, the high towers can take the stronghold of Tumbleton. Um, what happened was, I think they stole like the dragon. They were able to steal the blue queen back. That's how the dragon keeper was able to tell Rhaenyra what was happening or something like that. Or maybe they only took the blue queen to Tumbleton. Um, they say it's in Tumbleton right now. Yeah. Yeah. yeah. They didn't transfer her all the way back. Mm. Yeah.

[00:50:17] The dragon and the people are in Tumbleton and Rhaenyra's reaction is, I guess I'm gonna have to burn that bitch to the ground. They're like, well, you know, by doing that, you also killed the people in there that are your people, the people that you rule. So you kind of have to tread lightly. And this is when she realizes that she has bit off way more than she can chew. Uh, Rhaenyra is under fire. She's very angry, but the show kind of leaves us in a situation where we don't know what she's going to do next. Right. It's very much like,

[00:50:47] I love how this whole show is like the, the makeup, the, the makeup person, I think just gave her like gave her red eyeliner this whole episode or something. Like, because her, they were, it was crazy. It's like just a wild eyes. Well, she ain't slept. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. She did. She said she didn't sleep. So as she's realizing what is happening, it's just like, we're left to wonder, Oh Lord, what's going to happen?

[00:51:17] You know, because it's almost like, she's like, at least finally something that I can focus on. You know what I'm saying? Like, because she comes into this, this place to rule, she's completely overwhelmed. And it's like, well, at least maybe I can just go burn some people up. That's, that's way easier than governing. Yeah. But you can't burn your own folks. So you got to figure out how to navigate that too. Yeah. Like, Tumbleton, if I remember correctly, and we'll, we'll see next, next week.

[00:51:47] It's like, like a fortress town. It's famous for its bells, I believe. And I, and I believe the host of the army hides amongst the city. Like, like, so that's the thing. So yeah. Um, the battle of Tumbleton is coming up. I can only imagine how that's going to go when she tells Hugh the hammer. So by the way, we got to go lay siege to Tumbleton. You're good with that. Right.

[00:52:17] And his wife just there with her brother, you know, like maybe you might want to send a raid. Right. I don't know. Maybe you got to burn her alive. We don't know. Are you trying to, like, does your wife have good vibes, Hugh? Do you, how much you love her? You know what I'm saying? Like, come on, we can get you a new wife. You know, come on. Right. What are we doing?

[00:52:48] With a new wife? Right. Look, you could, you could be, you could be a widower in a Mercedes or you could be one in a, you know, in a Toyota. That's all I'm saying. In a Toyota. Right. So we, we leave a lot of things up in the air, literally and figuratively. I believe Damon is, has been told to take flight because he's got some politicking to do. We also have to find Amon because Amon is at Harrenhal or at least Amon is missing. They knew he went to Harrenhal.

[00:53:17] They know he's killed a bunch of people, but we haven't seen Amon and Vhagar for a long time. And she said something very interesting. She said, okay, well, whoever finds him can just have Harrenhal. And I thought, damn, don't tell that witch that. Yeah. Don't let her know that. Damon, sending Damon to the veil to negotiate. Do people not remember his first wife? Like, yeah. That was her people. They don't like him over there. Damon said,

[00:53:47] I'd be happy to go because they owe us money. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Right. Lady Jane over there, but it's like they owe, they, they owed you men slash now you're going to ask for money, but you owed them a dragon and you gave them a hatchling and some eggs. So it's just kind of like, again, treating your allies. Cause got to treat your allies. Good. You know,

[00:54:14] and imagine his face when he get there and see Raina sitting out there in the, in the fields with that dragon sheep stealer. I can't wait. I can't wait. Can't wait. They mentioned sheep stealer so many times. Cause they still don't know it's Raina ass out there in the field, just hanging out. And did you catch, they said that they, um, they said the only dragon that they seen was Sunfire dead. Yeah. His dead, his corpse. Yeah. So in twisting, um, trying to think,

[00:54:42] is there anything else that we haven't talked about from the episode before we get into the book corner? Um, Oh, I have a question. What they, they made a point of showing that little boy, the fake day Ron. Uh, he was carving a little bird out of wood. Was that supposed to tell her something? Like she seemed to take like pause when she saw him like late. He was asleep. But when she looked down, he had this little bird carved. And I don't know if that was just like a sign that he's not. Hmm. I don't know if it's a sign,

[00:55:12] if he's not nobility or whatever, but maybe it reminded her of like the Saris's, you know, for Saris's little miniature. Oh yeah. He used to, he used to carve, right. Maybe that's what that was. I mean, to be fair with the blonde, the boy does little, he does favor Viserys a little bit. Right. Right. So it could have been that, you know, because Aegon destroyed his miniatures once, uh, after the, uh, blood and cheese. So I, I wouldn't be surprised if Rainier is missing that right about now. Yeah.

[00:55:42] I also liked, uh, the moment when Rainier wouldn't tell Corlys that she was going to, uh, legitimize the bastards. She didn't tell him no yet, but she just kind of left him hanging. But when she hit the corner and she saw Baylor, she's like, ah, she just kept walking. She like, she didn't want to say nothing to her. Like, I feel you on that one. Cause you definitely about to say no. Um, so yeah, I thought it was a fun episode. I thought this episode was very funny. Uh, just like those moments, those beats of, you know, hit the corner. You think something's about to happen, but then the beat drop again and then the beat drop again and the beat drop again.

[00:56:12] That's when you realize that, Oh my God, she's kind of, I gotta watch it again. I do. Yeah. I, I gotta watch it again because like, it was such a subtle understated episode where it was so like a bottle episode. Then everything's flipped on its head at the end, you know? So, right. Right. So, watch it again. Would this have been a good way to open season three? I think so. Because I think if, I think, I think a little bit of a great premiere,

[00:56:42] because I think if you left last season, the way it ended, I think that you think, or the last episode, the way it ended, I think that you spend the next year or two, uh, depending on how long it takes for them to drop these episodes, um, like preparing for the Rhaenyra rain. And you're like, Oh, I can't wait to see what it looks like. And then you get slapped into the face with, what she does, right? Where you kind of hit the wall that she hits. So, Oh my God, this isn't what we expected. So I think that would have been so cool as a first episode. We know that it is,

[00:57:12] it is the third episode now, but. I'm still so mad at that. Like, why did the first season have 10 episodes? And then you made the arbitrary decision to give the second season, eight episodes, splitting off the last two. Like, I, I, who, I hate the decision makers over there. Yeah. Um, but yeah, relief right here, trying to be the champion of the people, but realizing that it's hard to give everybody what they do, what they want to please everybody.

[00:57:41] That's basically Viserys' downfall. And so she doesn't want to have that downfall herself. Um, so we will see next week what that looks like when she gets, you know, I guess to start making some of these political moves. Um, but Mari, we got to talk about the book. And so, uh, for all the people who are listeners of this, uh, podcast who do not want to be spoiled or want any of the book knowledge, uh, now is your time to tap out. We'll be back next week. The same, uh, time, same bat network here talking about house of the dragon. Uh,

[00:58:11] but if you do want the supplemental Mari, uh, content, then now is the time for Maester Mari's book club. Uh, Mari in the, in the, in the book, you said there is no, uh, there's no like fake day Ron plant, uh, plan. I kind of liked this. Yeah, I actually did really like this. Like little light. Like, I love that. I was not mad at that at all. I, again,

[00:58:38] I was like confused and I was like, maybe I'm miss my remembering something or, or actually my, my biggest thought was thinking like, Oh, this is them introducing the character so that when he does have a bigger role, it, everybody's not like who, you know what I'm saying? So, um, I, I, I was initially thinking before the reveal that like, maybe the kid was going to like run away. Like when she said she was going to let Alison see him, I was like, Oh, okay. Alison will like free him or something.

[00:59:08] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what, that was where my thought process it was going. So, so you told me that Ormond is not a big deal in the book, but he seems to be like a very big figure here in the show. I mean, just looking at the way and the contrast between him and Damon, where Damon comes and he's like being snarky and, you know, kind of like playing a jokester. He's like, Oh yeah. Oh, sorry. I forgot. We're going to take your, your kid hostage. Just FYI, LOL, you know? And Ormond is presenting himself as like, okay,

[00:59:38] you know, very pragmatic, very, uh, solution oriented. He's not doing flying off the handle it. Cause he's foresaw this happening, right? They already bleached this kid's hair. So they knew that the obvious thing is to take this kid away, you know, or to, or to at least try to execute them. And so we need a stand in child to kind of throw everybody off the scent so that they can make this bigger plan happen. Uh, what do you think about Ormond, the way he's getting depicted in the show versus what you know about him in the book? Yeah. I mean,

[01:00:07] like essentially his main, his main, um, not goal, but his main, uh, function in the book is to act as Darren's, um, Darren, Darren's the ward. So it's like his. Warden. It was a mentor maybe. Yeah. We'll go with that. Yeah. So, um, it, and, and when he,

[01:00:36] when he did the neon, I was like, okay, this is more in line with what I was thinking too. Like, cause I kept looking at that field and all those people. I was like, there's no battle. I can't fight right now. Right. And I was, and so, and then when he immediately bent the knee and did all that, I was like, I was like, okay, well that makes sense chronologically, but also I was, but I was thinking like they show, they forever showed all these like soldiers, like lining up in the high tower. And I was like,

[01:01:06] did they really just do all that for this opening 10 minutes or whatever? So I just thought it was very cunning. Um, you know, and I, I like his portrayal. I really do. And this is, it's not surprising that he would do something like this. This is, this is the Theon treatment, right? This happens all the time. Whenever there are wars, um, the, the first thing you do is you take wards, AKA hostages of the house. It happens.

[01:01:35] It happens every single time. Um, one of the defeated houses must give up. Um, they must give up, uh, like, Ooh, even in Viserys's time, I feel like something like this kind of happened, but anyways, they have to give up. They have to give up, like a son or a daughter or something so that it keeps that. And it's normally the region, right? It's, it's main houses. It's like, it keeps them,

[01:02:04] them people in check because if you do an uprising, I have your heir. Um, and I can just kill him. At any point, you know? Um, so this is, this was, it was not, it's not Thailand level or sure. Auto level of thinking and cunning to be like, Oh, they're probably going to come for day run. Of course they're coming for day run. You know what I'm saying? So it was like, again, it was a great maneuver, but it's not like he, he's not a little finger. You know what I'm saying? Um,

[01:02:33] I think the word we were looking for is guardian. I think that's the word. There it is. Yes. It's a game. Yeah. I was like, it's right there. Yeah. Um, okay. So in these, these rough patch where we're getting for Rhaenyra, does the book explore Rhaenyra's reign having, uh, so many obstacles? Yeah, it, it, it does because war is turmoil. And the people are constantly looking for somebody to blame.

[01:03:03] And, you know, who is often, who is once seen as the liberator can often then be turned into the enemy. And because, again, everything that the people were undergoing under the greens, they, when they saw Rhaenyra circling and they see that she showed restraint, she's the liberator. But when things don't start going the way they want to, now she's the enemy. Now she's a dictator. So, um,

[01:03:33] this is perfectly in line with it. And especially in, in Westeros. And, and, you know, we, we watched game of Thrones and the war of the five Kings. It, whenever there's war, the, the streets become unsafe. Like, remember they, they talked about here, like the triarchy. We saw it last episode, but they talked about it here. The triarchy, those who, um, who couldn't go back with the, the ships that flee, they came ashore.

[01:04:01] And now they're like ravishing villages and stuff like that. Like war is not kind to the small folk. We talked about it in Duncan egg, like, and so the small folk are going to need, somebody to, to blame. And again, the, the transfer of power was not peaceful for Rhaenyra. So she, she runs into quite a lot of obstacles. Is there anything, uh, from this episode,

[01:04:27] like Tom timeline wise that we need to know from the books that can give us a little bit more context about what's about to happen? Because obviously Rhaenyra has got some things to do. Heron Hall is still up in the air. You know, we got to get our, we got to get Joffrey back. Um, so what, what's next according to the book, like what, what kind of, where do we, or not so much what's next, like don't spoil us, but tell us, give us some context to what's going on. Well, what's next is the battle of Tumbledore. She has to go and deal with this. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, feeding the,

[01:04:56] the small focus side that, you know, that gave her a couple of weeks. She has to put a stop for this because now with Aegon gone and unaccounted for, with Aemon gone and unaccounted for with the world's largest dragon, it's like she cannot literally legitimately claim the throne when arguably there's two to three claimants out there just wandering around.

[01:05:25] So if she can't find Aegon to assert herself there and she can't find Aemon to assert herself there, it's kind of like with Lord Hightower with Otto. So she knows where Daeron is. She's going to be like, I have more dragons than him. I need to go like show, do a show force on him. So, so that's what's next. The battle of Tumbledore. Well,

[01:05:53] I'm very concerned because from what I can understand, Tumbledore has a bunch of people in it. Is she, you know, it's her at some point. I mean, I know you got to fight them, but do you try to lure them out? Like, or do you just come in and just start burning stuff? We will see. Yikes. Okay. Anybody else you want to give some context to before we wrap? Anybody else? We've already talked about Myceria. She's doing a really good job trying to be, being the mistress of whispers.

[01:06:24] We've dug around in Damon's head. I think we, I think we've kind of understood where Allison is coming from. Allison did everything she was supposed to do. And she's still like, just leave me alone. Leave me and my weird daughter alone. So what did you, how did you think you, we talked about the rinky dinkness of the nighting of the bastards. Oh my God.

[01:06:55] What do you, what do you think is going on in their heads right about now? Well, for, for off, I think it doesn't really matter. I think that for him, this is better life than what he had going on. He's kind of just in for the ride. I don't think he believes anything that's going on though. Cause I think there's definitely moments where they cut to him. He's like, is this it? That's like, I think it's really demystifying the nobility for him because, you know, he's growing up in a world where the, the gods have chosen these people.

[01:07:22] This is their noble blood and the dragons only ride for certain people. And now you're like, little old me got a dragon. And now I'm a, a Lord and all this other stuff. And a night too. Oh my God. If it can happen to me, it can happen to anybody, you know? And I think in a weird way, it's like a rags to riches story, but also kind of like a, like we were talking about with the bastards, like the blood don't matter. It's all about the names. It's what you make of this moment, right? Like if off goes on to win a big battle or whatever, he's no longer just off. He's off the white, you know,

[01:07:52] battle of Tumbleton winner, you know? And then that, that brings legitimacy to his kids, you know, his kids are going to inherit stuff. And then one day they'll marry nobility. And then all of a sudden his grandkids will be Starks or, you know, or, you know, Targary or whatever the case may be, you know? And so I think that's kind of interesting to watch. Hugh, I think is in a tight spot because Tumbleton is where his wife is. And his, his boss is about to tell him to go burn it. And so I definitely, I definitely think we should be concerned about Hugh's longevity here, but honestly,

[01:08:21] all of their longevity. I think that off is probably the most safe. I think Hugh is the second most that I'm like, all right, maybe you could get a new wife, but I think Adam, Adam is going to find out from Corliss that. Yeah. We're not, you're not getting the name. She won't give it to you. She was too busy trying to give names to her bastards. That didn't even look like her. Mine look just like me. And, um, she got an issue now all of a sudden, you know? And, uh,

[01:08:49] I don't know how that's going to hold up because Adam seems like the more, it seems like the more malleable of the two, but I think once him and Alan kind of put their twin heads together, I think at that point, they're like, ah, something ain't right here. We don't, uh, we're not going to ride for this. So I just think that, you know, this rinky dink nighting of these three, these three specific people, it doesn't bode well for her. You know, like I really wish she had a one, at least one night that was like, I give you all, you know, I don't care.

[01:09:17] I'm willing to die for this thing. You know, like I, they have no wants, they have no needs. They're just here for the sole purpose of serving her. She ain't got nobody like that. I think everybody around her has an ulterior motive. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's, it's very much what have you done for me lately? You know? And you know, it's, I think the climb to the throne is the fun part. I think the battle for supremacy is the fun part. I think the campaigning, you know, we see that with politicians all the time where they are just like,

[01:09:47] they're going home. They tell you everything you want to hear. They're making promises, you know, you do all these hashtags and all that kind of stuff. But then when they get an office, you're like, you may, you may promises, daddy, you know, like you, you start asking questions about like, okay, but where's the money? Where's the money? Where are the things? Where's the goal? Where's the prosperity? Where's the change? Where gas prices supposed to be low. Why are the eggs still going up? What you said, these things. And, you know, I think the hardest part is, you know, once you get that throne,

[01:10:15] once you get that crown on your head and you realize how heavy that month is, you're like, damn, this is hard. And it's hard to make all these promises make sense into feed everybody. You got to rob Peter to pay Paul. And sometimes Paul ain't got it. And Peter ain't got it either. And so she, Rhaenyra has been like in a really bad spot. And a lot, a lot of it's obviously not her fault. But this is the spot she's in. And I'm very entertained watching her kind of trying to figure out a way out of this, because I don't think there is a right answer.

[01:10:44] I think all the things are going to be wrong for somebody. And I think that's what Allison was trying to get her to understand. It's like, you got to crack some eggs to make this omelet. Yeah. There's too many people for you to try and please everybody. Right. And again, it's how you'll be remembered in the history books. Right. So, um, and also, like you said, the money is in the chase. It's just like in wrestling. It's like, you have that ultimate baby face. They're chasing the title, chasing the title, chasing the title.

[01:11:11] People are paying their money to see the chase in the moment that they win that belt. Boy, normally it takes about a month or two months before the crowd then turns on them. Like it's, it's just like human nature. Almost, you know, we, we root for the underdog just intrinsically. So, um, it's an uphill battle. Uh, other than that, I just have two corrections corners here in the book as well. Just, um,

[01:11:39] in the first episode when I was like, why are the Starks here? Those were the gray beards. I couldn't remember if I corrected that. Like they were supposed to be there. And I totally forgot about, I didn't totally forget about it. They did not introduce themselves correctly, but we did talk about that. Like when, when, when, uh, Jason went to the wall and Craig said, yeah, I can get you the gray beards right now. The rest of people might take a minute. Like I said, originally I was like, it takes them forever to get from Winterfell, but them,

[01:12:09] they came to die and two thirds of them died for their queen. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then the other correction, which I thought was after like, cause I, I read, I reread the book all the time. And after rereading the book, I realized that kind of like with the Laenor storyline,

[01:12:31] they took one small line from the book and made a whole new storyline from it. And the storyline with Alison helping Rhaenyra and getting Aemon to go to Harrenhal, technically could be seen to have happened in the books because, um, in the books, um,

[01:13:00] Eamon flies off to Harrenhal. He, he's like, ah, ha ha ha. We drove them out. They were afraid to face us with Chris and Cole, which by the way, where is he? Yeah. But anyways, um, uh, and then they find out that the, the fall of King's Landing, you know, happens. And in the book, it says,

[01:13:26] Aemon suspected that there had to be a, um, a mole, basically a mole on the, on the council, because how else would they have known when King's Landing was the most vulnerable? So yeah, they, they took that, that one line and blew it up to a storyline where Alison was that, that mole,

[01:13:48] which I guess when you put it like that makes more sense because of how she was treated post the takeover. But still, I, I, I, not, I've already said, it's not really a interpretation that I like that much. Um, how does history remember Rhaenyra in the books? Cause I think right now she's trying to get to like Viserys levels of, I don't want to make anybody mad, but like,

[01:14:17] what is her like ultimate legacy? Um, you know, as far as like the queen that she's remembered as. Well, like Taryn said last week in the book corner, she was called Maegor with teats. So Maegor, the cruel, um, one of, one of the, uh, one of her ancestors who was horrible leader, horrible leader, very ruthless would kill any and everybody. Um,

[01:14:46] he had six wives, uh, and earned the name Maegor, the cruel. So she was in this history. She was referred to as Maegor with teats, a raging like bitch. She was, she was not seen kindly in this history book. And it's, it's one of the things we talked about last week with Taryn, with the perception of how these two women, you know,

[01:15:13] battled it out and how much agency they had and how history chose to remember them. and with that, knowing that a lot of the chroniclers, um, were lean kind of team green, you know, um, or, or at the very least were men. Yeah. Or men. Yes. Um, and the chronicler that was there, um,

[01:15:42] with her every step of the way, his account isn't taken as seriously because he, he's a fool. He was a fool mushroom, the fool or the full mushroom and mushroom writes down his account of, uh, the dance, um, from Rainier's court because he was Rainier's fool. And there was a lot of insight that he gave, but he also, again, was full in the gesture. So he intermixed it with a lot of like jokes and exact. Yeah.

[01:16:11] And exaggeration. So people can't really fully, um, like fully understand what, you know, he was, he was really getting at there. So yeah, she was not seen kindly to history. I said this last episode and I was, I'll double down two episodes in a row. She has awful PR right now. Her PR is bad. I thought, I think that public execution of Otto as bungled as it was, was not good. Um, I think that, you know,

[01:16:41] finding out that she didn't have any money and then having to deal with all of this stuff. I think that people are going to talk. And I think that she, luckily she has my Syria, right? So she is the, the mass, the mistress of, of whispers. She's out here kind of pushing her propaganda. That's good. But with Corliss yelling things like your kids are bastard. And he died a bastard. That's not going to inspire people, you know, uh, especially because Corliss is a war hero. He just, they just won the battle of Gullet. Like Corliss weren't going to go far. Um, they know how much he's lost, you know,

[01:17:10] and you don't need him screaming that stuff at the top of his lungs. And I highly doubt that'll be the last time he says something like that. Again, we saw what happened with Corliss, his own brother. Uh, they, them, them in words are willing to die to keep the truth to say that truth. Okay. They are. Uh, so yeah, not great as far as like the public opinion for her right now. And so like, if it continues to go down this route where even her boat, like her best intentioned, uh,

[01:17:38] actions are seen as highly negative in a lot of people's way, I can definitely see a world where she ends up being compared to Maegor. Yeah, exactly. So, and, and it's also just one of those things like at this junction, she's probably damned if she do, damned if she don't, to be quite honest. Yeah. Um, but heavy is the head that wears the crown and we will find out what she does with that, uh, next week when we come back to talk about house of the dragon season three, episode four, uh, until then, Mari,

[01:18:07] what else are you working on? Well, you can find me over on crime scene. Uh, you can go to crime scene pod.com. That's crime. S E E N pod.com. Where me and Sarah carry their name, bring you true crime. And Tuesdays, if you sign up for buy me a coffee.com slash crime scene pod and become a member or a supporter there, you'll get access to a lot of, uh, uh, members only episodes. Uh, you'll get access to what it will now be our once a month, uh, our monthly, um,

[01:18:36] live recording. So, um, if you are a member on buy me a coffee, we will let you know when we will be doing a live recording and you'll get to sit in on the studio and watch us record live with our guests. And you'll get to, um, you know, interact with us, leave questions. Chappelle was our first, um, was on our first live like that. And it went so well. And members asked for us to do it again that we're now going to do it monthly. The next one is next week. So, uh,

[01:19:05] we'll be joined by Jason Reed to talk about worst neighbor ever on Netflix. And that will be live. So, um, it's members only. You got to show up there. It'll be a 9 PM Eastern, I believe on July 10th. And, uh, you'll get to see all the behind the scenes. You'll get to see all of the blunders, the, uh, the cussing, the inappropriate jokes and laughter. You'll get to see all of that live and interact with us live.

[01:19:35] Um, and if you're not a member, you will get the very polished, neat, and nice episode like you normally do. So it's, it's a lot of fun over there. So make sure you're subscribing to crime scene pod, wherever you get your podcasts in order to, um, support us. Um, as well, big brother starts soon. So hopefully we'll be doing some coverage on RHAP. I'm excited about that. So make sure you are following me over on blue sky. I'm only on blue sky, you know, very pretentious of me.

[01:20:03] I'm only on blue sky at Mari talks too much. That's two, like the number two. That's where I'm pretty sure I'll be getting off all of my big brother hot takes, um, over there. So just make sure you're, you're following me. Yeah. And, uh, check me out on, uh, blue sky as well, uh, at, uh, recap kickback on all social media platforms. I will be, uh, also chronicling my thoughts about big brother this season. I'll be over on, uh, the Rob has a podcast network. Um,

[01:20:33] we know reality TV, we know big brother.com, whatever the case may be. Um, for the patrons of that podcast, you can hear me talking about some shenanigans in the big brother house on the slop, but that's a paid podcast for patrons only. Uh, but then if you want to hear my, uh, thoughts about the strategy, you can check me out talking to David Bloomberg every week on why blank lost. And we go through the rules that David has established for why these players lose these reality TV games. And I will be his cohost for this season, uh, big brother. And so check that out. But of course, make sure you stick, uh,

[01:21:03] stick around here on recap kickback. So catch up with all the content that we have, including the vampire list that, which, uh, that podcast should be dropping tomorrow, uh, for you. And, uh, you definitely need to come and join Mari and I, as we talk about the shenanigans over there. And then of course, Chantel and I, it's so fun. It's so fun. Get you, also get you a vampire list that cup too, while you're at it. Uh, and then, um, Chantel and I are still talking about, uh, the flavor of love cinematic universe, starting now with, uh, the rock of love, uh, series. Uh,

[01:21:32] we did episode one live on last Sunday. And so, uh, every Sunday we should have an episode recap of that show for you as well, but that's it for Mari and for myself. You ain't got to go home, but you do have to tune in next week for more content from us right here on recap kickback presents house of the dragon hot D the Westeros kickback. Uh, peace and, uh, take care of everybody. I've been trapped.