The Jury is OUT on "Michael Jackson: The Verdict"

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[00:01:37] Hey, wassup fam? Welcome back again to Recap Kickback. It's me, your host Chappell. Back to you to talk about another thing that is in the media, that is black, that is taking the world by storm. Try to stay on top of all the trending conversations here. And so we got something very important to talk about. It's the verdict, colon Michael Jackson or Michael Jackson, colon the verdict. I don't remember which one. But with me to talk about it, per usual, my co-host with all things crime in mind, it's Mari Forth. Mari, welcome back. Yes, we are back.

[00:02:07] More Michael. Like we are just – we're in our element here talking about Michael Jackson. Today we are watching – talking about and approaching the Michael Jackson, the verdict documentary. So definitely a little bit different. It's going to lean more towards crime scene. It's going to really analyzing and evaluating this documentary. But still going to be fun because it's Recap Kickback. So I'm excited to talk about this over here.

[00:02:37] Yes, if you weren't familiar then you should know this if you're following us on social media. But this is the Crime Scene Recap Kickback crossover week. I will be joining Mari and her co-host Sarah Carradine to talk about this a little bit but also to talk about something else, Mari. Yes, we will be talking about The Nightmare Upstairs, What Happened to Ty and Brinley. It is a two-part docuseries on Hulu and it is wild.

[00:03:07] So tomorrow for all of our members and just paid supporters, like if you want to support us for $1, something like that, you'll get access to our live taping of this. So me, Sarah and Chappelle will be on tomorrow. That's Friday, 9 p.m. Eastern. And we'll if you're a supporter, you'll get the link. You'll get the link and then you can join us live. Talk to us as we're recording.

[00:03:36] You get to see all of the flubs. You get to see how the sausage is made over there. And we're going to be talking about a property that is really just left me speechless to say the least. So you can go to buymeacoffee.com slash crime scene pod in order to either become a member or like I said, just become a supporter. Throw us a couple bucks and you'll get access to that. So, yeah, that's fun. It's going to be a good time.

[00:04:05] And yeah, and that will be how we kind of end our crime scene, kind of cross over this week. But yeah, tune in for that live. And since we're talking about crime, we had to bring in a legal expert, someone who recently finished law school. It's AJ. Is it Esquire? What's your official title now? Doctor? Not Esquire. The kid Esquire. JD. Not Esquire. Not Esquire until you pass the bar.

[00:04:34] Juris Doctor. A Juris Doctor Norris. That's what the J stands for now. AJ, welcome back. Honestly, I thought I was sure for a minute there. Cause I was like, oh yeah, we're doing this crossover. Like of course. The second co-host of crime scene. Yes. No, no. This time we get AJ. AJ, you're fresh off of a legal education. I'm so excited to have you here. And to guess now we can really break glass in case of emergency. If we ever have any questions for you. Listen, and I'm happily.

[00:05:04] We'll fumbly talk my way confidently through it and not know the right answer, but we'll text you the correct answer later. Okay. Just like a lawyer. Correct. As long as you're confident. So yes. Thank you all. I would say nothing confidently. So much. Oh yeah. My sentences. Oh no. We brought you here for charisma first and then your legal expertise after that. Listen, if you're coming for me for legal advice. Um, y'all gonna have to start paying me soon.

[00:05:33] Like I didn't come to the school to be poor. Like, wait a minute. What are you doing? That's real. That's real. Uh, I changed my mind. AJ is just here for charisma. No illegal. So AJ, we brought you in to talk about Michael Jackson colon the verdict. And, uh, it was a very interesting watch. This is a three part documentary on the heels of Michael Jackson's, uh, most recent re-rise

[00:06:03] into prominence with his Michael Jackson movie. Um, uh, that just dropped not too long ago. AJ, did you watch that movie? I did not watch that movie, but I haven't been theater since like forever. Oh, he's too busy being a lawyer. Or lawyer. Okay. All right. All right. But here's the thing. I know the Michael biopic was like a big deal. Like, I think everyone that I know has watched it. Like they have talked about it. They came home singing the Michael Jackson song, singing the praises of the biopic.

[00:06:32] So I know it was a good time. I know it was a fun time. I know I'm missing out. Uh, I'll get to it once it gets to, you know, Netflix, Peacock, whichever gets it first. Yeah. Yeah. Probably Peacock. Maybe HBO Max might get it first. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. Now, AJ, you got iPhone. I can send you some links. You know, I like that, you know, well, hold on. You the cops now. So I don't even know if I can do that. You, you, you, you, tell me if it's trapping. Yeah. Yo, yo, yo, I'm not on the clock.

[00:07:03] So, uh, this documentary three part series brought to us by directed by Nick Green and produced by candle true stories. It's going to revisit the 2005 criminal trial of singer Michael Jackson, examining the allegations and the courtroom proceedings and the public response that surrounded the most famous person, uh, on earth at the time.

[00:07:28] Uh, Mark, I argue that in history, Michael Jackson is probably like the second or third most famous person ever. Uh, thinking Jesus and then Michael Jackson and then probably Hitler. Like what are the big three? Yo. Yeah. Is the Pope in there somewhere? I don't know. He changes all the time. They change. Yeah. Leo. If the Chicago Pope wants to take the spot, like I want him in mind. Yeah. Yeah. Chi town Pope young Pope. Yeah.

[00:07:57] I like him too, but Michael's name is huge. Now Mari and I grew up with Michael Jackson, but AJ, you are a wee baby. Um, what is your experience with Michael Jackson with the Lord? Cause in 2005 you were born. I was like, it's, I think it's interesting because I grew up in a different time from, um, Michael Jackson than y'all considering like, I think when I was born, like the allegations

[00:08:25] had already started, um, against Michael Jackson and like the jokes about Michael Jackson being weird with kids, um, has been flowing through my entire life. Uh, Kamal, but before I knew that I knew him from like my Christmas album. Like I saw mommy kids Santa Claus every year, like, like, and like, I grew up like, cause my parents raised me right on his music. Like listening to the music, listen to the great albums, listen to all the great things that Michael's done. So it's like, like, I'm not a super fan like y'all, but like, I like Michael Jackson. I respect him.

[00:08:54] I like thriller is one of the greatest albums of all times. Like he did that. Um, so yeah. So yeah. I'm good. So you got a little insight, but Mari, you, you and I, we were in the trenches with my Michael Jackson early on. And we remember, um, we were very much adults by the time the, well, not adults, but you know what I'm saying? Like going into adulthood, approaching adulthood, uh, as the 2005 criminal trials happened. But, uh, as AJ pointed out, the allegations had started before that.

[00:09:22] So what was your recollection of this time, uh, period when it came to your fandom of Michael Jackson, but also just Michael Jackson as a public figure. That by the time that second trial came, um, it was really just like appointment, like viewing, watching the news all the time. Um, hearing little snips and, and bits about what happened in the courtroom.

[00:09:48] That's why I was excited to watch this because I was like, I want an in depth, um, you know, record keeping of what happened in the courtroom. Because I, as a young person, I just remember hearing snippets here, snippets there. This person, um, testified, this person testified. Um, I remember the pajamas and one of my notes, when my notes, I was like, Oh, this was pajama day.

[00:10:12] Like, you know, I, I remember the S him standing on the SUV, like all of those, all that footage of Michael entering and leaving the courtroom. I was like, I've seen all of this footage. Um, and it was really at like the beginning of this documentary where they said, Oh, the judge said no cameras in the courtroom. That was like, now that makes a lot of sense. You know what I'm saying? Like it all started to like click together.

[00:10:39] Um, but now after watching this documentary, I'm like, man, they really, I think the judge, I think that was a poor decision for history for the sake of history that it wasn't recorded, um, or a document it. Like the reason we know about the OJ trial, the reason we know about the Menendez trials, the reason that's a lot of these trials are the crimes of the century.

[00:11:03] They're often studied in law, in law or in, in, um, forensics is because we have the trial, the, like the video of the trial and people can see with their own eyes and interpret what was said with their own eyes and stuff like that. And the fact that we don't have this with, with this trial, I think is very unfortunate.

[00:11:24] And, um, you know, it's one of those reasons why, like tangentially knowing what happened growing up, it being a whole part of my world. And then him, you know, being declared innocent. I was like, yep, that like in our household, it was like, oh yeah, these people, money grubbers, that, that, that, that, that, like never doubted it for a second. Um, so yeah, I wanted more.

[00:11:51] I, I, I basically came in this like wanting more, wanting to know more about what I had heard. And unfortunately I don't think I'm leaving knowing more. I would like to, I think I have like very conflicting opinions that would, dang you, Mari. Um, cause first off, like I agree, it's like not one of the big trials, like the OJ trial. Like I've seen and heard the other ones, but like this one, I knew there was a trial. I knew the jury found him not guilty. I knew what happened. Like, but until watching this, I didn't realize how big of a deal, like it genuinely

[00:12:21] was, um, that Michael Jackson was on, um, trial. And I agree with you. I was hoping watching this, especially as we were getting through it, it was like, okay, I get to, um, get more into the details of the trial and how everything happened. Um, with that being said, um, the fact that this is a child molestation case and that the victim was going to testify, like, I do not believe that is something that should be recorded. Like, especially when you're dealing with such a sensitive topic at a young age, whether

[00:12:50] you found the victim reliable or not competent or not to stand trial. Like, I think because of how like sensitive the topic is, I would prefer like if they recorded everything else, but at least like had, um, him blocked out. I think that would've been good, but like him on the camera, I wouldn't have liked that. That would've felt too wicky to me. Yeah. They did that in the nature boy, um, trial, like the, his victims. Yeah. They, they can easily do that.

[00:13:16] Uh, choose to not record, uh, the, the victims and stuff like that. It's especially cause like, I'm, I'm not to talk about the documentary or like our opinions about it. Like I've left that documentary film. Like I don't, y'all ain't tell me much at all. Like y'all tell me much of anything. Like, I don't know really what happened. All I know is it was a circus ass mess. Like what we doing? Yeah. And, and that's a really good point, AJ.

[00:13:40] I think that, you know, Mari's point of if we had recorded the trial, we would have less of people just speculating and sensationalizing things and giving their own kind of editorialized view of things because you can see it yourself. Exactly. Whereas here, this is the Netflix version of these events, but I'm sure there are conflicting versions of these events all over the place where people have now look back and they're telling the story with their 2026 lens or their 20, you know, whenever this was filmed

[00:14:07] and they're looking back and now your memory feels a little bit different, or maybe you're looking at it and things are bigger and badder than they used to be, or that they were in the moment. There's this one scene in the documentary, they're talking about how Michael's defense attorney was yelling at the child and they were yelling so loud. You could hear him yelling down the hallway. And the judge was just chilling, just letting that happen, you know, but apparently it was happening according to this man. Right. If I believe that, yeah, that's crazy. But it was like, why are y'all letting him berate a child like that?

[00:14:36] Is nobody objecting? But had we had the footage, we would be able to know, was he yelling or was he using a stern voice or, you know, or were people upset about it? Was that a moment of contention? We don't really get a 360 view of everything. You know, we just kind of get the retelling of all these events. Whereas I think a firsthand source, even if you have to omit the stuff with the minors, a firsthand source would have been incredible with somebody of this level of fame.

[00:15:04] You know, like, I don't know if they thought one day Michael Jackson would not be this famous, but I'd say his fame has probably multiplied over the years so many times to where these questions are like we're looking for the answers to these questions still to this day. And this man been gone for 20 years. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So many things. Um, cause yeah, we gotta get into it. Thank you for teeing that up there. Like there are so many times in this documentary where I'm like, give me the transcript.

[00:15:33] Give me the actual evidence. Stop telling me the story through the eyes of the third chair, uh, prosecutor who what he wasn't even the guy there was his name. Ron Deckman or whatever his name is. He was like, we did this. We do that. Do you were, you were third chair. You were like, you were not the main guy, Tom Smedan dead. He died.

[00:16:01] Um, and Tom Smedan is the one who, if, if you're actually in the know of the case is, is who you should have smoke for because he's the guy who essentially had targeted Michael for 10 plus years trying to get this case going. Then on top of that, Diane diamond, like, did she produce this? Like, why was she in 90% of it? Why are, is the court?

[00:16:30] Why are we getting courtroom testimony from her notes of saying what she heard? Mm. AJ, correct me if I'm wrong. This is a public court case. This is the whole transcripts of the, the, the child should be available for public consumption, right? Yeah. So why the hell do we not have somebody here reading the court?

[00:16:54] You're letting her read her notes to put her editorializing on it, but you're not giving me the straight up facts. And I also for, I was like, this is okay. I also for, uh, I just picked one of the trial days trial day, day 23. It was in the third episode. I wrote from the time that it said day 23 and the prosecution presented their case.

[00:17:24] I put a timer on it. It was a four minute timer for the prosecution's case. And it was when they talked about the boys, when they brought in the different, um, uh, household workers who testified to what they saw. It was about four minutes of coverage on the prosecution's, um, case being presented with these, with these workers.

[00:17:47] When they flipped it over to talk about the defense's cross examination, they gave the defense 40 seconds in this documentary to, to, to explain what the defense did on the cross examination. And it was one line from the black, uh, journalist for the CBS expert. He said, uh, Tom and SQ systematically went through each, um, each person and threw them into the grifter file.

[00:18:14] So after that, they then had rebuttal, even more rebuttal stuff from like reporters on good morning America. And Diane's back here again. And like, how can you call them all grifters for like another two minutes until we get to the next subject? I was like, how can you say that this isn't, this is not me nitpicking at the beginning of the documentary.

[00:18:40] It said this documentary is meant to present both the, uh, prosecution and the defense in the trial of Mark Michael Jackson. Like they had a whole slate saying, this is about the trial of Michael Jackson. It is to, it's supposed to present both sides. It failed. It utterly failed at the, uh, with 24 minutes left in the third episode, the defense, it was finally the defense's turn.

[00:19:08] And I was like, okay, it's the defense's turn. Maybe they'll get more time here. Maybe I'll learn more about how they, the, you know, the defense was actually able to get the not guilty, um, verdicts. Eight minutes, y'all eight minutes from the 24 minutes left to 16 minutes left. They talked about the defense calling all of the boys who the prosecution had alleged was a pattern of abuse for Michael Jackson.

[00:19:36] So, and this, we should have, if you know anything, this, I knew, I knew Macaulay Culkin was called. I knew Wade Robinson was called. I knew Brent, um, Brent, I forget what his last name was called. We all know that, you know what I'm saying? Did we get to hear what they said? No. You know, all we were told is they were presented. The defense did a good job. And then they yada yada'd the defense. Um, the defense, uh, took another two weeks. They called 50 witnesses in that two weeks.

[00:20:05] And then they move on to the verdict. Bitch. What? Three episodes of you setting up this whole, like, I, I was just mad. I was mad because I'm like, I am here as an avid documentary watcher, as a crime documentary watcher, as somebody who's a trained forensic scientist, like, as somebody who breaks down properties for the past four years.

[00:20:34] And y'all gave me absolutely nothing except for just to be like, how could they have gotten it so wrong? They basically tried to present it as the jurors got it so wrong. Oh, yeah. Can I call a spade a spade? That was my friend. Do it. Now, we are not here to litigate whether or not Michael Jackson did it or did not do it. In the court of law, in the ida court of law, he didn't do it. The juries found him not guilty. And I, the juror number, whatever her number was, said it first.

[00:21:05] Number eight, thank you. Said it like, the prosecution's job was to prove out of a reasonable doubt that Michael Jackson is guilty of everything that they're alleging. I watched the prosecution. I'm like, oh, from day one to whenever they closed their case, every day I was like, they're bad at their jobs. They're so bad. Like, this is so bad at their jobs. Like, the defense could have been like, you know, I just rest. Y'all did my job for me. Like, God bless. That's a really good point. But that's a really good point. And I've been living in a world where I'm, let's assume these people are doing their job to the best of their ability.

[00:21:34] This documentary is definitely giving you the defense was, the defense is like crooked and like, like, and just like shysty enough to get over on this incompetent prosecution. Like, that's what I felt walking away from this. Like, they would have got them if it wasn't for these tiny, tiny loopholes that only this guy can exploit because the prosecution was messing up things. Had they not done this, this, and this, then it would have been very clear to anybody and da, da, da, da, da.

[00:21:58] But I feel like that's, that's so, uh, diminishing of the story is that like, oh yeah, like Michael Jackson is innocent because the prosecution was bad. There's so much evidence. Like Mari said, 50 people were brought in and you just kind of be like, all right, we brought in 50 people and then blah, blah, blah. So he's not guilty. Wait a minute. Hold on. 50 people. That's very important to why, you know, these jurors are sitting there and saying they watched the entire documentary. They watched the entire Martin Bashir documentary in that courtroom.

[00:22:26] And yet it was all, it was all discredited. And you were like, oh yeah, well, it was only discredited because he yelled at the one kid and, you know, and then, you know, one of the kids like, yeah, sure. He, he might've been a grifter once, but blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, get into the nitty gritty of it because all documentaries have a point of view, whether, you know, and, and, and it's just the point we're here to make entertainment first. Right. And this point of view to me became very staggering.

[00:22:54] Like to Mari's point, she did the math on the, uh, on just the way both sides were presented. This is, it starts to feel like a hit piece. We're not here to say that Michael Jackson is innocent. The court already said that what I'm saying is if you're going to give me a documentary, show me the things I want to see why you feel so strongly about this. I want to see, and then I want to see, okay, well, if, if this man lost this case, uh, okay, cool bet prosecution loss. Show me how, show me exactly how don't give me your, yeah.

[00:23:21] Don't give me this weird kind of like example from these third parties. I understand there's no footage there, but even if you want to talk about, um, it was her Diane diamond. She was later sued by Michael Jackson for a hundred million dollars for slander. And he won, he won a hundred million dollar case against this woman. No wonder why she spends three episodes dragging him to hell. You know, it's, it's, wouldn't you? And so I was just like, man, maybe add that little tidbit.

[00:23:51] You know, Diane sued for a hundred million dollars and lost, you know, um, something to add. So that would make you say, and it was a hundred million dollars. He sued her, the company, everybody, he sued everybody down the line, uh, including that, um, the other woman who had gave her like this bad information, but whatever the case may be. Yeah. Because in the documentary.

[00:24:17] Because there was things that she said in this documentary that I'm like, how can you say that? That is unsubstantiated. The, the part where she said like, um, when Michael Jackson, when they had executed the search warrant on Neverland and then they couldn't find where Michael Jackson was and they put out an arrest warrant for him and they found him in Vegas. She said, one of my sources said he was in Vegas with liquor and drugs was German, German boys.

[00:24:45] And he, and I was like, how do you see that? Like, okay, cut to the German boys, show us German boys. And they're like, nobody's heard from them. I was like, you can't do stuff like this.

[00:25:00] Like it was so great to have so many notes, but I was just like, I, you said, like you said, I, I didn't, I came away knowing that the prosecution fucked up because again, this is what I do.

[00:25:16] Now, I don't know if that's how other people might take it because to me, it felt like for like an episode and a half before we get to the trial, they are, it's like, they're really trying to use that court of public opinion to really make you think. Like it felt like they started from a Michael Jackson did this and it's guilty. And as it shifts, it was like, man, but we, we fail that we fail to get the verdict.

[00:25:44] But to me, it didn't feel like they put the onus on the prosecution that they failed to get the verdict. To me, it kind of was like, they blamed everything else. Like the lingering shots on the juror, like trying to make juror look like, like they, they try to make her look like she was just too much of a Michael Jackson fangirl type thing. Talking about like wealth. Like it never felt to me personally that the documentary said, yeah, that's on me. The prosecution messed up.

[00:26:11] Like, and, and they really messed up because like, uh, I think AJ said, or, or maybe, I don't know, but like you have the, the straight up victims talking about what happened to them, but you put them on first. You, you put them, you put them up first. And then after you put them up, you then decide to make bonehead move after bonehead move after bonehead move.

[00:26:32] So by the time you rest your case and then the defense rest their case, you know, everybody forgets about what the kid testified to, you know what I'm saying? And introducing the fact that the judge let them introduce a so-called pattern of abuse in the Michael Jackson trial. I was like, whoa, how can you do that? How can you allow a pattern of abuse for molestation that has not been prosecuted?

[00:26:58] And I was like, wow, the judge kind of gives them a layup and they fumble it so bad because they ask former ex, um, uh, employees of Michael to come in and say, oh, I saw this happen. And then name dropped the boy. I saw this happen to Macaulay Coke it. I saw this happen to Wade Rapson. I saw this happen to Brett. And these people are testifying that, oh, this is the pattern he had, he did it with all these other guys.

[00:27:24] You open the door for the defense to walk these supposed victims up to that, that platform and be like, no, that didn't happen. And you're expecting the jury to disregard what they said and take the word of the former chef. Like the, the prosecution messed up from the get go. So, and it is actually kind of funny.

[00:27:49] I'm like LA, like LA prosecution apparently is just as bad as their, um, as their cops, because this is the same reason that OJ walked. They suck. Like, like genuinely, I genuinely feel like, um, from my opinion, I watched it and understand like you have your witness list prepared, um, before you even start trial.

[00:28:10] So, so you already know what you're doing in the order, but it genuinely felt like from watching this, they messed up so bad with the, um, victims that it was just like, now we're just throwing stuff against the wall and trying to see what sticks. Like, that's genuinely what it felt like. It did not feel like you had an actual case. It felt like you charged him with like 10 different things. You're like, okay, hopefully one of these will stick. And like, every time something went wrong, it's like, okay, maybe we can go to the next thing. Maybe this will work. 14 counts. Or maybe this will work.

[00:28:40] You know who you're calling? You know who the defense is calling. You see that they're going to call these kids. They're on the defense side. You know what the defense is going to say. Um, especially if they're testifying for them. What makes you think their way of the employee that may have saw Macaulay Culkin one time is going to weigh more than Macaulay Culkin on the freaking stand saying, I ain't do it. You can trust me. I ain't do nothing. Like, it's, it's, it's stupid. Like, and also like, did you not prepare your, uh, freaking, uh, witnesses to testify? Like, yo, this is what's going to happen when you get on stand.

[00:29:09] Cause apparently they all fumbled the bad. They all blew up. Not a single one. And also a lot of witnesses were bad witnesses. Like you said, Molly, the employee. What happened with Debbie Rowe, AJ? That's the funniest thing in the world. I'm sorry. Like, what do you mean that like you're, you're talking to Michael Jackson's S-Y and she's telling you all this stuff S-Y and Z. And then she gets in the courtroom and basically says like, Michael, I love you. I've always loved you. You did nothing wrong.

[00:29:39] You're a good man. And, and the documentary is like, oh, so another person was in love with Michael Jackson. Like, okay. So we fucked up. Like, how are we supposed to know that? He was like, it's like, Hey, Hey, maybe that was just never like, cause it's, you paint it. Like it's your big Trump card. Like we got it. We got Debbie. Like now we brought in Debbie and then for Debbie to switch up. They're like crazy ass Debbie. See, we should have never trusted her. It's like, no, a second ago, she was your secret weapon. A second ago, she was everything you needed.

[00:30:08] You know, um, a lot of this stuff doesn't really hold up over scrutiny and I'm not talking about the case. I'm talking about the documentary in general. So when I, when I was watching it, you know, it starts off with Martin Bashir and his documentary that kind of popped all of this off. And it was my, I remember this vividly because, uh, I was a, like a youth, but I've always, I've always told you I've, I've watched a lot of comedians over the years. It's kind of my jam. And I've heard a lot of Michael Jackson jokes. I'm talking about the blanket stuff, the Jesus juice, you name it.

[00:30:37] I've comedians were all over. I mean, Mari, you were South Park girly. You was on the ground floor. That's ignorant. That's ignorant. That's ignorant. Blanky. Why are you kidding me? So I grew up around that. So that's kind of my memory of this is that I remember the documentary. I remember watching it on TV. And then I remember everybody basically making a joke of it. Cause that was just the time. Uh, but I do remember the documentary.

[00:31:08] And so for the life of me, they kept showing this clip that Michael Jackson sitting next to Gavin and he's, and Gavin's like, yeah, he begged me to sleep in his bed. And they're like, Michael, that's not weird to you. And I was like, no, it's fine. You know, this is what you do when you love, like, you know, like that's, if you love me, you sleep in the bed. I think it's the clip they kept showing. Uh, is that Gavin says, Michael told me if he loved me, he'd sleep in here. If you love me, he'd sleep in here. I love when you sleep in here. But I managed to delve up, to dig up some footage of that same clip.

[00:31:36] And so I would just want to, uh, just submit this evidence to the court. Just okay. So just, this is just that clip, but this is from the original documentary. So, uh, bear with me. ...close friends ever since. When you stay here, do you stay in the house? Do you, does Michael let you enjoy the whole premises? There was one night I stood in there. I asked him if I could stay in the bedroom. And he let me stay in the bedroom. And I was like, Michael, you can sleep on the bed. And he was like, no, no, no, no. You sleep on the bed. Sleep on the bed.

[00:32:06] We're like, no, no, no. No, you sleep on, you sleep on the bed. And then he finally said, okay, if you love me, you sleep on the bed. I was like, oh man. And so I finally slept on the bed. But it was fun that night. I slept on the floor. Uh, wasn't sleeping back? No. And I slept on the floor. Conveniently left out of every time they showed that clip. They showed that clip four times in the documentary, if I count it correctly.

[00:32:33] And they never showed that Michael did not even sleep in the bed that night. He slept on the floor. If you continue to watch the clip, he talks about how he slept on a pile of blankets and all that kind of stuff. Um, sorry. I don't mean to interrupt you. Go ahead. But, um, but I remember watching this documentary. I told him, I actually told James, I was like, I remember watching this documentary. And I remember being like, oh my God, that's awesome. I want to go to Neverland.

[00:33:01] Like when did I get to sleep in that room? And, but do you remember after the Martin Bashir documentary? Do you, do you remember, uh, Chappelle? Remember Michael Jackson's team were also recording while Martin Bashir's team was recording. So the same year or the year after, uh, living with Michael or whatever Martin Bashir's documentary was, the Jackson family and them, they dropped the, like the rest of the footage. You remember that? Yeah.

[00:33:30] There was like the behind the scenes footage. Yeah. There was a whole nother kid there as well. That was like in the room. Like it was none of this, none of this was conveniently made the Netflix documentary. And again, this is not me trying to litigate Michael Jackson. Cause he's already, he's already dead and gone. But if you're going to show the clip, show the whole clip. Don't show me four times, Michael begging this, this, this kid and coercing him to sleep in his room and then not show me.

[00:33:57] And then Michael proceeded to sleep on the floor because that's, to me, that's very important evidence. AJ. I would like to litigate this one, actually. Um, because, cause I've never seen the documentary. Right. And the opinion I got was like, this documentary was basically showing Michael Jackson in the good light, Neverland in a good light. And then this clip right here was what was like the damning part. And like, you can't, you can't lie. Like when they show it and that's what they show us, you're like, Oh, Michael, you can't be in a bed of kids. And especially like, Oh, if you love me, you sleep in bed.

[00:34:25] Oh, sleeping in bed is not, there's nothing sexual about it. They're making it sexual. And I was like, Oh, this is actually damning. Like, Oh, don't, don't do that. You, you would not want your kid sleeping with a 12 year old. Um, with that being said, like after I watched this documentary, I was like, Oh, I want to do more research. So I watched, uh, what was it? A square, square one, something like that. Um, yeah. The square one documentary. And it was like showing so many other things, which include like, yeah, there was another person in there. Like you said, and he said, yeah, Michael said, I'm gonna sleep on the floor. You're going to sleep on the floor.

[00:34:54] The kids can sleep in the bed. And it was like, Whoa, you're leaving out important, crucial information. That's going to change how I personally feel. Cause, cause I'm going into this. I'm like, Oh, okay. Okay. This, this ain't great. Let's, let's see what they do with this in the court. Um, and now I'm like, they didn't even tell us that. And I'm like, ah, the bias. This is like, there's clearly like, it's, it's not, it was like a bias of one way. And it makes you want to feel a certain way about Michael Jackson, which is like negative. Yes.

[00:35:22] And I think that's what like, one of my biggest issues with this documentary, it wants to come off. Like we're neutral party. We are a neutral party, but you are clearly our bias party that wants you to feel a certain type of way. Even when you're messing up, even when the party side that you read would mess up. Like I noticed this. I don't know if y'all noticed this. Like I was like the first episode. I don't think I saw a single black person as a token head. Uh, the Michael Jackson family in episode two.

[00:35:48] Once you get like all the other black, except for one, all the black talk head was like, nah, this was a racial thing against Michael Jackson. Like they were targeting him, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And it's like, ah, see, you got these people who had a documentary against Michael Jackson, who's a former accuser of Michael Jackson. And these people who did not believe. Oh yeah. His, um, PR from Serena Reynolds Williams. She was in the first one, but she was like, she was like, nah, he's he, I talked to him. He denied it. I believed him. So I worked for him. I was like, you know what? Fair enough. I trust a black woman.

[00:36:16] And they never said, they never go back to her opinion about it really. And it's crazy too. Cause they bring her in. She says, I trust Michael Jackson. And they're like, of course you do. And then just move on. Right. There was a second juror, like juror number seven or something. A white lady. Three or something. Yeah. Three. Yeah. She was, she was 23 at the trial. Yeah. She just said, hi, I'm juror number three. And we never saw her again. She said like two things. Yeah.

[00:36:45] She said something to the effect of like, I took this very seriously because I didn't want anybody to go to jail for doing something wrong for not for you. But I also didn't want a pedophile to walk free. That was like the one real soundbite we got from her. And then the rest of it was like, okay, cool bet. Let's get back to this other woman. Cause we're going to make her look like a fan boy. Cause they were literally like, we can make her look like a character. Like look how loony this Michael Jackson fan was that she's banging over him. And she's building a lottery ticket. My girl. I love her.

[00:37:13] They're like, oh, look how crazy this one girl is over Michael Jackson. Like she's not credible. Right. Y'all. I really wonder if the other juror was like, I took this very seriously. I went over the evidence. This is how I came to my conclusion. And they just didn't want to include it. Like it didn't make sense. There were so many talking heads that were introduced and then dropped. Fun fact.

[00:37:39] I did not realize that the second trial with, you know, Gavin Arvizo, I didn't realize he was the kid in the Neverland thing. I didn't know that. Oh yeah. I actually never. I didn't know that. I didn't know that was the same one. I would like to say that. I heard. I heard. I remember seeing the family video. I remember seeing the family video on the news. Like, whoa, this is loopy. Sorry, AJ. I will say if I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm going to give a nod to Michael Jackson.

[00:38:06] And then if I watch the full thing, like I could, I'm comfortable retaking my statement. I did find it icky trotting out the child that did just be cancer. And I did not like that. Leave the children out of it. Leave the children out of the spotlight. Cause at the moment he's, I saw him in there. I was like, there's going to be a lot of people on this kid who already went through a lot. I do not want to see that. But that's the one issue I have with it. But it's like, I get it. Especially after like all the things that are coming at you.

[00:38:34] And you're like, I'm not this monster that the world's trying to paint me out to be. Chappelle, did they accurately describe the timeline as well? Because Gavin got cancer. He had cancer before this Martin Bashir documentary. Right. And that's how he initially came into their lives. Yes. Michael helped him beat cancer was what the quote Gavin gives. In that documentary. Him and his mom are in the documentary. In Michael Jackson's kitchen, I believe. And they're recounting how Michael's love.

[00:39:02] And you know, probably money. You know, helped him get better. I mean, like, you know, toward medical care. But then also just money make you feel good. And so, yeah. So Gavin had already beat cancer by the time this had happened. Yeah. And then after the Martin Bashir documentary, everybody was trying to find him. They said they took them to Neverland and cloistered them in Neverland. Made them do that family video.

[00:39:29] Even though we talked to one of the Michael Jackson's associates who said he thought it was real. Who said it. And correct me if I'm wrong. Are they trying to say that the molestation happened like during that time period? Like after the Martin Bashir documentary? So I guess they're alluding that the molestation was happening already. The time period where they're in Neverland hiding.

[00:39:53] That's when Gavin's mom basically said that Michael was holding them hostage. And threatening to put them in a hot air balloon as punishment. And that quickly fell apart as well. Because they were, in actuality, they were able to leave Neverland Ranch. But her argument is that we were held hostage. And so there are different portions of this that they're trying to litigate. It is the molestation. But then also he kidnapped us. But then also this. And then also this.

[00:40:23] And then also this. So I think the timeline is a little blurry. Okay. And then Janet Arvizo's credibility. One thing that the documentary does tell us, doesn't depict it well still in my thought, is that Janet Arvizo was not a good character. Not a good witness. She was all over the place. She actually entered the courtroom like a guilty person did. Was she? Well, it was funny because Michael outlined that, right?

[00:40:51] Michael said, like, how do guilty people end up? Because I'm not doing that. I'm not doing what the guilty people do because I'm not guilty. So I'm going to stand up on the, you know. And then we see Janet come in in that exact kind of mode. They're, like, kind of hiding or whatever. And you're right. But I still think, like, when you depict her as somebody who's untrustworthy, they try to make her kind of seem like she's a victim to kind of, you know, her circumstance. Like, maybe she might be a little crazy.

[00:41:15] But the Arvizo family really does get dragged through the mud in real life because they are, you know, like, they talk about it, kind of pass it. Like, oh, yeah. And they, okay. So they found out that they scammed a bunch of people out of, like, $120,000 or something like that. They even scammed George Lopez. He ended up testifying about his experience with the Arvizo family. Yeah. He said he had given them money when Gavin was ill but then later became suspicious of the father's motives and then cut off contact.

[00:41:42] So they brought in George Lopez as a witness as well. So, yes. That was another thing, right? Wasn't there something about Gavin's father? Like, they briefly mentioned him at the beginning of the documentary as being estranged from the family. But I could have sworn there was something in my recollection from the case that he was estranged from the family because of maybe the money-seeking thing.

[00:42:11] Because, like you said, George Lopez contributed to the cancer stuff. Like, wasn't it a whole thing of, like, Janet was using Gavin's cancer to, like, crowdfund money and stuff like that? Yeah. Gavin's cancer diagnosis was in 2000, if I'm not mistaken. And so from there, you know, George Lopez, Michael Jackson, people are giving him money.

[00:42:33] And it is actually the dad, David Arvizo, who comes out after the whole, you know, like, during the trial. And he's, like, you know, coming out of the blue, out of the woodwork. Like, you know, this is inappropriate. And it's my wife's fault, you know, for letting my kid be around this. So, you know, it was a lot of shadiness going on with the Arvizo family. Which, again, to your point, AJ, just makes some really bad witnesses. So you should have known that before you put them on the sand. Listen, listen, listen.

[00:43:03] I don't know all the evidence. I was not in the prosecution room. I was not making decisions. Based on what I saw, I would never drop this case. I would never try this case. Like, I did not think, like, none of your witnesses were credible enough. Like, I was, like, every single – like, it's one thing if, like, okay, you have a bad witness. Like, you're always going to have a bad witness that's, like, you're not prepared for what they say or they say something that you don't like or they can be easily discredited. But all of your witnesses, like, every single one – like, what are we doing here?

[00:43:33] Every single one is crazy. Mari, there's also that one moment where they bring in one of the original accusers, and he's the one who said that he could depict Michael Jackson's body. I think that's what it was. Jordy. Jordy. But what I understand, that's not necessarily accurate either. AJ? Okay? Again, another thing that, like, this documentary did – because it was like, yeah, if you can describe Michael Jackson naked, especially his features, then that would show that he was inappropriate.

[00:44:01] I'm like, well, you know what? Yeah, I'll be above 50 with you. I don't know what your dick looked like, and I don't – I plan to never know. Like, let me be honest with you. So when they was like, oh, he did describe it. He did see it. In the other documentary, they was like, yeah, he described it. It was completely wrong. He was wrong. It was not. Yeah. Not to get too graphic, but I'm pretty sure that there was questions about the circumcism of Michael Jackson. Yes! That would be something that would be really hard to miss if you'd seen his penis before.

[00:44:33] And, yeah, you got that wrong. They did not say that in this documentary, by the way. They said – oh, no, it looked exactly right. It was – he got it down to – he knew there were splotches on him. It's like, Michael had vitiligo. You can assume there were splotches everywhere. That's what I was saying. Like, they were saying stuff that was like – oh, yeah, he had, like, the pornography that Gavin said was in there. Yeah, Mari. Talk about the CP, Mari. Was it a – was it CP?

[00:45:02] I mean, was it CP? I mean, clearly not because we never find out about a CP charge. I will say the magazine being titled Barely Legal was off-putting, but, you know. I mean, the images were off-putting as well. I'm not going to defend that. And I'm not looking at that shit. Yeah, exactly. And so they're like, yeah. And there was – the pornography was in the black suitcase. Like he said, that wasn't – they didn't say that at trial. They didn't say that at trial.

[00:45:31] The one thing they do say at trial is Tom Mescu – I forget how you say his name. The defense says, oh, you saw this magazine? And was it the younger brother or was it Gavin himself? I can't remember. The younger. The younger. The younger brother. Was it younger? He's like, did you see this magazine? He's like, yeah, I saw that magazine. Like, this one? Barely Legal one? Yes, I saw that one. Date. Like, hit them with a date. The date was months after they had left Neverland.

[00:45:59] And I was like, that's not good. I felt so bad. I did feel bad for like Gavin and Starr and having to testify and, you know, being in this whole circus and all of that. And, again, the FBI had been monitoring Michael Jackson since the 1993 case for 10 years until the second trial case.

[00:46:31] Child pornography charges were never brought against him. Like we said, there was pornography found on the property. But for all intents and purposes, as we know, it was adult, you know, adult, regular pornography, stuff like that.

[00:46:46] The books that they do present in the documentary here, it's the boys, the naturalists, their books that are basically like nudist books of like different types of families and kids. On crime scene, we talked about a Brooke Shields documentary. And Brooke Shields actually was 12 when she was shot for books like this as well.

[00:47:13] Unfortunately, back in like the 70s, 80s, kind of early 90s, there was art house books like this. Where art house books that would depict various naked bodies in different forms. And what we do now come to realize and what people are saying that they think it was,

[00:47:39] it was a way for people with certain kinks to get around the laws at the time. Because it wasn't illegal for minors to pose nude in art house style books. Because these books are not depicting them sexually. It's like, yeah, it's kind of like Sports Illustrated's body issue. Except you can see genitals. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

[00:48:10] Look, to me, that's gross. But I guess, you know, look, if that's what Michael had in his house. My issue isn't so much that like, okay, the documentary is like protecting Michael Jackson in any way. In fact, I think it's kind of being, you know, a little targeted toward him. But I think that if you wanted to explain in more depth, you know, what Michael Jackson is guilty of, if you are going to try to pin something on him when it comes to this kind of stuff, tell us why this didn't work.

[00:48:37] You know, we saw them basically from the moment they announced this, this briefcase or suitcase of porn exists. We saw what was it? A magazine where they had circled in their child porn, you know, like all the things that we ordered and all this other stuff. And I'm like, okay, bet by the end of the documentary, I should know why that didn't at least work. And I heard nothing. I'm like, what happened to that? Go back to that little, to the little, uh, newspaper, you know, the little, uh, magazine article. What happened to the circles?

[00:49:07] Uh, Mario, you, you got some insight. Yeah. Yeah. So the documentary is very, they were like, get past it. Get past it. Yeah. I thought they, I was like, you got them. Damn. So what, what happened was the, the, the associate guy, I forget his name. He was just billed as Michael Jackson associate from 2002 to 2003. Right. He was there for the fallout of the Martin Bashir. Vincent. I mean, what's his name? Vincent. Yes. Vincent.

[00:49:36] He was the one who shot Janet and her kids saying like, Michael's good to us, all of that. So he was an associate. So when they executed the warrant on Neverland, right. Um, they also, uh, they tried to flip Vincent. They're like, Vincent, tell us all that, you know, if there's anything inappropriate. Vincent's like, I, I didn't see anything, you know, as far as I know, I trust Michael because my friend, I think his friend's name was Tyler. Trust Michael Jackson.

[00:50:05] Tyler, Michael Jackson's friend, another quote unquote, Michael Jackson associate who we did not hear from. We just see him in pictures here. He had been with Michael Jackson since he was like five or six. And he basically grew up with Michael Jackson. He grew up in Neverland to the point where, um, he, he, he was basically like Michael's executive assistant, like basically like a, like an assistant and associate again, just

[00:50:29] a part of Michael's entourage and Tyler's gate got Vincent the job. Right. And Vincent would ask Tyler like, Hey, did Michael do this? And Tyler said, no, Michael would do none. Wouldn't do anything. It's cool. Well, apparently from what Vincent tells us again, no supporting documents, nothing.

[00:50:53] Um, Vincent tells us that, uh, that as they're executing the search warrant on Neverland, they start to execute search warrants on known Jackson associates apparently, which, okay. And so Tyler, who's worried that they're going to, um, search his house gives Vincent a bag of stuff and says, get rid of it.

[00:51:18] Vincent, we do have the video camera footage here of Vincent going through the bag and it's these, the, the magazines themselves. I couldn't tell if the magazines themselves were kind of like weird or porno-y or icky, but he, she's like, he said, like Chappelle says, you go to the back and it was like how you would order these other books.

[00:51:46] So again, how you would order these nudist style books, um, these art house coffee table books and Michael would circle it. Well, from what, um, Vince, Vincent said that Tyler said the Michael would circle the magazines that he would want and Tyler would, because that's how you order them back in the day for all of our youngins here. Um, you would order them from the back of other magazines.

[00:52:13] And so, and that's how they would order them. And we ha we do have like grainy footage of this. And the problem here, Chappelle is if this is all true, that chain of that chain of custody is all fucked. Like, uh, forensically it is, it, you, you can't, you can't, um, without a doubt say that that bag is in relation to Michael.

[00:52:40] Cause that could just be Tyler's bag that he, that he is saying, Oh, me and Michael went through a phase. You know what I'm saying? Like that's, that would not be admissible evidence. And we still don't know it. We don't, uh, Vince, I don't think Vincent ever says if he even turns that back over as evidence or not. So I don't know. They, that was very unclear. See, to me that came off like some very damning evidence in the moment. Now you're explaining it to me. I'm like, well, look, you know, had we not been talking about this, had I just watched

[00:53:09] the documentary at face value? I'd be like, damn, you know, they what's going on there. Why, why, you know, we should, maybe we should be readdressing some of this stuff. But when you put it like that, I'm like, Oh, it makes total sense. AJ, uh, the problem, one of the biggest problem I have with this is that Michael Jackson is dead. And so a lot of the conversation we're having, we will never hear his rebuttal. And in a documentary like this, you hear so much of the prosecution and the people who are making accusations of Michael Jackson and the lore of Michael Jackson, as it stands

[00:53:38] in public opinion was not great after this. Uh, they talk about how he will never recover from this and he doesn't, and he does not. Uh, but, uh, because of that, um, you know, I think it, the public opinion about Michael Jackson has always been a little dark and, uh, you know, clouded regardless of the outcome of this case. What would you say to, uh, about these documentaries that are made about people who can, who are no longer here kind of to tell their side of the story? I think it's tricky.

[00:54:08] Um, because I, I do think of the victims, right. Of certain things that are afraid to confront the perpetrators and the people who actually caused them harm in their real life. And now that they're dead, they've, and even after time, they finally get the strength to finally speak their truth and to be able to like, whether it's like to the public personally is finally, finally able to find a way to release all the burden or hurt that's been put on them, um, that they've been carrying through a lot of their lives.

[00:54:36] And I think they should have the opportunity to express their, um, feelings and their wishes and what went, happened to them. I think where it gets, um, Harry, especially with the Michael Jackson issue is this has already been litigated. This, this has already been done. One, we have y'all, I'm assuming y'all put y'all best foot forward and your best foot wasn't worth crap. Um, so like, and the fact that we're still relitigating this, it's like, y'all just did

[00:55:06] not want to let this die. If, if like, cause here's my truth. If, if it'll be one thing if this, um, documentary was like, we made all these mistakes and this is what we would have done better. But like it was either you, Mari or you should probably all said, but that's not what this document was. It was like, sure. We made this mistakes, but darn those jurors only if they saw the light through all our mistakes, all our mess, all our crap.

[00:55:30] So I, so I do think it's one thing to, um, to answer your original question, to be careful when you're talking about the dead because they do not have the opportunity to rebut themselves. They do not have the opportunity. Cause I think that's the, one of the beautiful things about our legal systems. You have the right to confront your accuser. And if you're not able to confront your confuser, you're like, okay, who are you going to believe me or the dead person? And the dead person did not get to fight. There is so much that can carry on, not just from them, but from their state, their children

[00:56:00] have to deal with the burden, the people that follows after them. So I, I don't like it. I don't care for it. Um, I think there's ways to do it and a documentary for millions of people to watch is not it in my opinion. Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, this is a Netflix documentary. It is here to entertain. It's here to make money. It's here to have a point of view as well. I mean, there's not, it's no coincidence that this happens right after the Michael Jackson biopic. Um, some would say that because of the biopic, it is important to shine light on the things that Michael Jackson has done.

[00:56:29] If he is guilty as, as, as they say that he is. Um, and then some would say that if he was found innocent to leave it alone, I'm kind of in the middle somewhere. I was like, I don't mind you telling the story, but tell the entire story, tell me the entire story. And because we don't have footage of inside the courtroom, we will never get the entire story from there. There is no unbiased account of the Michael Jackson trial to this day. There's not one person who is not unbiased, uh, whether it is on good, bad, whatever you hear, however, these words ring in your ears, the moment they hit your soul.

[00:56:58] That's when you make your decision about how you feel. You can have no opinion until you hear it. And then at that point, your brain is going to form one. And whether you hear it and you immediately believe the victim or whether you hear it and immediately believe that this is a grift or whatever the case may be, you weren't in the room and the people that were in the room were not recorded that day. And so we don't get any of the victims in this documentary, if I'm not mistaken, uh, you know, and they do have a chance to speak up as much as they had.

[00:57:27] And they, and they have in different ways, uh, these, uh, you know, the accusers, I guess I should say, uh, they've, uh, there've been accusations made. There's been recants. There's been a lot of stuff going, going behind the scenes, but at the end of the day, this is something that has been talked to death. And so, uh, I just asked that if Netflix makes a documentary, make a better documentary. I want to walk away feeling like I learned something about the, the person when I was talking about the crime, if anything, like you said, AJ, I just feel like it was a, it was a circus.

[00:57:56] And knowing that this was a circus is actually a better documentary than thinking this is about Michael Jackson. And this is really about how, how to miss properly handle a court case. So that said, AJ, as our guest here, I'll let Mari do the honors. I believe at crime scene, AJ has been a guest on crime scene before you have a tradition, Mari. Yeah. Yes.

[00:58:22] So, uh, on crime scene, we always ask, um, AJ out of five magnifying glasses, how, how would you rate, um, Michael Jackson, the verdict by being the best one being the worst? Um, I'm gonna give it a one. I'm gonna be honest with you. Like, cause here's my, I hate that this was made. I genuinely do. I think the world is worse off because this was made because like, I genuinely, cause like

[00:58:52] best case, like what this documentary has done has so much harm. Like first you're, um, causing harm to the estate of Michael Jackson, whether he, without like great evidence to prove your point, to defend your point, which then have people watching it be like, this is why you can't trust the legal system. You got, um, corrupt people that are just trying to tear people down for a personal gain or personal reason. Or, um, and when the legal system is like such a beautiful thing to try to help victims

[00:59:21] and this whole thing, I did not feel like it tried to help anyone. It made, it made the prosecution look incompetent, made the defense look corrupt. And like when like, sure, there's incompetent and corrupt lawyers, like sure they are out there, but that's not what you want to think when you're looking for someone to help you, especially like when you're going to the legal field, you usually have a time where you need the help and you don't want it, but you are in so much pain and you need someone that knows how to go through these waters. So I hate that on the legal sense.

[00:59:49] I hate that on the, um, victim sense, because I think if you're a victim of sexual assault and you watch this, um, documentary, it's basically tells you, Hey, if you're not a perfect victim, they're going to tear you apart. They're going to go throw you famous. If he's too rich. Yeah. If the person is too famous, rich has like a higher amount of net worth than you, like you might as well not, um, speak up or speak out because they're either going to throw all this money at you. People are not going to believe you.

[01:00:19] There's going to be all this bias when like, it's going to want victims of sexual abuse, especially child sexual abuse, like to want to stay hidden when like you need to speak up because like they said, like it's hard prosecuting child sex crimes because there is so little like evidence because there's usually no one there, but the child and the person who committed the crime. And like children do not know how to properly process what happens to them at that younger age, especially something so traumatic.

[01:00:45] Um, so I think this, um, documentary hurt like victims and that way too. So I think whatever this documentary was trying to do, it failed on every single point. And like, you can't be pirated on one. If you, if you can't even do a single thing, right. I'll push back on one thing you said, AJ, this documentary got clicks and that's what they wanted. They, they wanted clicks. There's a reason why this thumbnail is going to say Michael Jackson guilty with a question

[01:01:14] mark because I want clicks. I said it. Yeah. Click, click on the, click on the video. Give me the, I want the clicks, the likes, the engagements. Uh, I want all that. And that's what they did. They, they really did use a divisive topic and, uh, one that is, that hits you right in the soul, right? Cause these are children. So you want to make sure that you have the kids in mind, like in mind, but it's also one of the most beloved figures in history with Michael Jackson. And so this is naturally going to get clicks.

[01:01:42] It's naturally going to get people feeling a lot of, a lot of ways. And then I think everything after that they did was irresponsible. Like you said, um, cause I, I did walk away from this thinking like, damn for the victims, you know, like if you, and I'm not talking about, again, not talking about these victims because obviously if Michael's innocent, then they are not victims, uh, by the court of law, but I'm talking about victims in the future, even if, and honestly, and this is a Mario and I talked about this before, but I have a real issue with when people are alive and

[01:02:09] they have to like face media that capitalizes off of their pain. That just drives me insane. That's one thing that gets under my skin. It's like, don't go make a bunch of money at my, at the expense of my story. Uh, I will never appreciate that. It's just something it's a, it's one of the things that get under my skin. So if AJ gave this a one, I'm probably going to give it, I give it a two, I guess, to be nice, but I don't know, Mario. It's hard for me to not give this one. Can I add one more point to my one? Yes.

[01:02:39] They also left this documentary with so many questions, so many unanswered questions that has answers that I have to go search for those answers. Like you said, with the briefcase, with the, um, witnesses testimony, it's like the extra footage, like they leave so many questions. Like it doesn't make sense. And it's like, no, when you research it, like it makes perfect sense why all this failed. Like it's not hidden, but they did not want to present it. If you're going to present a court case from beginning to end, I need to understand why it ended that way.

[01:03:09] And I just like, well, the juries liked Michael Jackson. And I guess that's why all this unanswered questions were unanswered. AJ, when they said, uh, Debbie Rowe got on the stand and switched up her, um, testimony and they said, oh, there was nothing we could do. I was like, treat her as a hostile witness. What? No. Like, is that lady purging herself? Yes or no. Like, let's talk about it. You know, um, again, Mari, you're the expert.

[01:03:38] AJ is also the expert, but you are a documentary expert here. Um, AJ gave it a one. I got to demote it down to a 1.5 cause he's right. I just, I shouldn't have to do so much research after a documentary. That's, that's what really bothers me. I don't want to do extra homework. Mari, you've seen so many of these. What is your final verdict on the verdict? No, you're, you guys are completely right. The fact that even I was like, I feel like each one of us came. I was just shocked. I heard from you.

[01:04:05] Like, why, why, why did this is, why did we have to unearth evidence that's already been said in out there? We did not have to go and find this stuff. It is readily available on the internet. So you specifically left it out of your documentary. So you could specifically give it a bit. And again, like Chappelle says, like Sarah says, um, every documentary does have a, a point

[01:04:32] of view and the point of view is, is, is what they want. You guys were the ones who told me at the beginning of this documentary that this was supposed to be a balanced view of both the prosecution and the defense. And you just did not deliver on the promise that you promised. That's something they said at the top of the show. So you utterly failed. It's a one you utterly failed.

[01:04:59] Um, it felt like, um, the, they're trying to prosecute him in the court of public opinion now that he's gone and it's at the expense of these victims. It's at the expense of these victims, you know what I'm saying? So, um, and again, there was just, there's no reason why we shouldn't be, we shouldn't have been reading from the actual court transcripts. We, we, we should not like, we should not have needed to rely on Diane's, um, like recordings.

[01:05:27] Like it was just so biased. It was not, it, it was incomplete and it was cherry picked. And again, the fact that they yada yada the defense that pissed me off so much. Oh, and guys, so, you know, Tom, you know, Michael Jackson's defense attorney, who we saw a lot of in extemporary, like archival footage. Right. Um, so, you know, he's alive, right?

[01:05:57] He, he's alive. He's alive and I'll send you guys his Tik TOK, but he's on Tik TOK. And they're like, they asked him like, why aren't you in the documentary? He's like, why? He, he said that he, he said the exact same thing AJ said. He's like, this has been litigated. Uh, um, it's very funny. He, he, he says, maybe I'm gonna send it to you, Chappelle, but he says, why? Um, okay. Don't send it to me. Why, why are we doing this?

[01:06:26] He said, he says, why are we doing this? This is at the time where Michael Jackson's fans, uh, like his biopic is out. He's at the peak. It's a celebration of him and, and Netflix drops this documentary. Um, and there's no, there's no reason for it. Um, so I, I didn't want to participate because why are we bringing this up? Why are we talking about this? And I was like, sir, I thought you were no longer with us.

[01:06:53] That was the only reason why I assumed you weren't here. So, so the fact that, the fact that he's here, I'm just kind of like, oh, okay. Um, yeah. Like, and I, he does, he does say that he was asked. He does say that he was asked. Um, but it also kind of like, they felt like, oh, if you don't want to be, you don't want to be here, we'll, we'll present it like this, you know?

[01:07:24] So, um, yeah, it, it just, it was just too biased for me. It, it didn't, it didn't reveal anything that I didn't know. Um, so it, it, it was just a horrible documentary to say the least. Um, and I, I just thought that, I just thought we, how do we give Diane Diamond or I think that's her name, uh, all of, all of that time.

[01:07:50] Like we gave her so much time in this documentary and then we only hear from again, juror number three once, you know, we only hear from some other talking heads once the whole narrative is really presented through Diane and, um, what's his name? Ron, Ron or whatever his name is. Yeah. Him. Yeah. Ron again, third chair. I don't know if he's the actual third chair. He wasn't the main guy. I can tell you that right now.

[01:08:18] Um, I've been, uh, I've been a talking head before in a documentary. So, uh, I can speak to this. They, um, they will, uh, tell you what to say and not to say that these people were told what to say, but documentaries are trying to push a certain story. They have a storyboard. They've already mapped out what they want the documentary to look like. They now need to fill in the blanks with people to corroborate what they're saying and to validate the point of view that they're already trying to push. Uh, and I've experienced it. I watched it happen. And I was like, there are things that I said.

[01:08:47] In that documentary that are not in the documentary at all. Um, and y'all know me, I'd be saying a lot of stuff. And so, um, believe me when I say if they want to try to make it look a certain way, they will. And it's very much felt like that again, maybe you can, you can call me bias as much as you want. Um, but at the end of the day, if this documentary is supposed to change my mind about something, it left me with so many questions that even at that point, I can't even say, well, damn, you've, you've given me so much that now I have to reconsider. It's more like you've given me so much.

[01:09:17] I need to go research it. And then when I did, I started to see things that completely take away from your original argument. So all that to say the documentary did fail and making me feel like, okay, I need to be, you know, looking at Michael Jackson in a different light. It fell. And like, I don't think it's doing anything for the victims at all. I think that is highly divisive. And if that's what you were going for, then congratulations. It's probably going to make a bunch of money because it's on Netflix and that's how Sue sees it. AJ. Yeah. Sorry.

[01:09:46] It says that it's number one show on Netflix, which is also interesting since a lot of, uh, when I, when I pitched this to Chappelle, a lot of black people said that they were boycotting it because they again felt like it was just a hit piece, a smear campaign on Michael Jackson. Um, and a lot of people from what I understand canceled their Netflix subscriptions because of this as well. Yeah.

[01:10:11] Look again, not to say that I'm an expert on Netflix, but I did have a podcast for a couple of years called nothing. I've seen some crazy shit at number one that didn't have no business being. And so, um, if they want it to be on the front page of Netflix, it will be up there no matter what, but you know, we'll leave this to the court of the public opinion of recap kickback listeners. Did you like the documentary? Yes or no. Don't be in the comments fighting about Michael Jackson, whether or not you believe it, whether or not you don't, you think we all buy it. Keep it to yourself.

[01:10:40] I don't care, but just tell us if you like the documentary. If not, Hey, let us know as well and put us, put it in the comments on our YouTube page, youtube.com site at recap kickback. Uh, or you can leave a, um, you can leave a comment, I think on Spotify now, but, uh, yeah, come back and join us next time when we talk about something else and we have to have AJ back soon. AJ, thank you so much for joining us. I cannot wait till y'all have me back for something fun. I had a great time. You don't have a good time.

[01:11:09] We got to do a movie. Say that again. We got to do another Madea movie. Can we do an older Madea movie? What you want to do? You want to do more? Like, you know, you want to do it. Let's do a stage play. Let's go back to the real way. Yeah. Back when it was gritty. That'd be fun. Yeah. I like a stage. Yeah. AJ, thank you so much. Tell everybody where they can find you and what you're working on. I hear you're talking about some millennial TV yourself. I am talking with the great Matt Liguori on the free agents, a millennial TV podcast.

[01:11:38] We're talking about Drake and Josh. Josh, just going through, breaking down some old timey shows. My goal, y'all, is to do so good that I can introduce Matt to the Proud family. And we talk about that. Wait. Hold on. Wait. You mean to tell me Matt Liguori, the Disney kid, has never seen the Proud family? I felt the same way. I felt the same way. It's giving.

[01:12:06] I mean, maybe watch High School Musical. You make him watch the Proud family now, damn it. And I know exactly which episode I want you to watch. There's a nice movie where they start dancing. We'll talk about it. You already know I'm going with that. I gotcha. I know where you're going. Oh my God. So I'm doing that. Matt, I'm also starting a new project with Felipe on Animation Station. We're watching every Pitsong movie. I think the Toy Story should be coming out next week. So we're going to watch every single one of them. So yeah.

[01:12:36] Come on. I'm doing more stuff now. He's back, baby. Yes. I left High School and I said, let's start recording. Do you want followers on social media? No, I'm not there. Still not on social media. Okay. Listen, y'all have to listen to me. You don't get my stuff for free on the Twitters and the Blue Skies and stuff. There you go. You need legal advice. Listen, if you need legal advice, pay AJ. But he cannot practice law yet.

[01:13:06] He just can give you some advice. Good luck, AJ, in all things legal. Thank you again, Mari. You and I have a lot going on in the next couple of weeks. Yes. Yes, we do. Cool. So again, depending on when you're listening to this, either tomorrow or later on today or whenever or yesterday, we are covering the Nightmare Upstairs over on Crime Scene.

[01:13:34] So if you want to hear me, Chappelle, and Sarah on Crime Scene and say you missed the live, you can always just go to CrimeScenePod.com to subscribe to Crime Scene. And you can listen. You can just listen to us. You won't be able to see us. But you can listen to the podcast wherever you get your podcasts once you subscribe to Crime Scene. We are also covering the Vampire List stats. That's back. They're back, baby.

[01:14:02] I think, you know, Chappelle, we got to talk about coverage. I know we'll be covering it directly after it airs on Sunday. Yeah. This week. After that, it might be Monday since we'll have to cover House of the Dragon. It might be Tuesday. Because House of the Dragon, we cover Sunday night. It'll be up Monday.

[01:14:28] So then at earliest, the interview with the vampire will be up on Tuesday. There you go. No matter what, you're getting us back to back at the beginning of the week. There you go. Yeah. We will keep you company in the beginning of the week. So a lot going on on Recap Kickback. Also, buy my cups. Buy some cups. These right here with me and Chappelle are showing.

[01:14:56] It's a team black versus team green. House of the Dragon themed cups, custom-made tumblers. You can go to maricraftstomuch.bigcartel.com in order to order your cup. Also over there is crime scene merch as well. So, yeah. Hit your girl up for all your cup needs. And follow Mari at MariTalksTooMuch on all things, all social media platforms, especially Blue Sky.

[01:15:24] Follow me at Recap Kickback on all platforms. Go shoot us some follows on TikTok as well. They won't let me go live over there yet because I'm not famous enough. So y'all go do that. Then we can get some live content over on TikTok. But until then, y'all know where to find us for AJ, for Mari, and for myself. You ain't got to go home, but you got to get the hell up out of here. We'll talk to y'all next time. Peace. I've been traveling.